Objektive sound comparison: Fw17.04 vs. FW18 (G3)

Thanks for doing the tests over and going to all that trouble. Both of the clips sound great. Really good. But I'll be darned if I can discern any difference at all just by listening. Maybe it feels better to play?

I recommend really to download the files, load into your DAW, loop small details and solo direct A/B. Good Monitor situation is also a "must have". Than you can hear a lot of differences... FW18 IS a change and a good one, imho ... but ... OF COURSE (what did you thought was FW17.04? Garbage?...) improvements are relative subtle... the improvement in better / clearer, less muddy bass response and less ice picky are the easiest findings ... listen to the tweed ... the whole sound change to a ...hmmm ... nicer one ... i like it a lot!
 
I still don't hear much difference. Yet when I play the two versions side-by-side I hear and feel a considerable difference. Perhaps it's mostly feel and that doesn't translate to recordings.

I disagree with the making small clips and looping them, etc. That's too clinical and OCD. It's all about the feel and the "mojo". Download the firmware, install it and enjoy it. It's not a science project. It's an art project. Make some music with it. FW18 is inspiring to play for whatever reason. Actually I know the reasons but I can't share that. The reason that people are freaking out is that FW18 is all about certain subtle nuances that fine tube amps have but that modelers don't, or did not until now. Tube amps do several key things that provide certain psychological stimulation and create enjoyment. FW18 reproduces those nuances. It took nearly a year of studying amps to figure these secrets out and then getting that into code.

If you haven't played it, you won't understand. But as soon as you play it, you will understand. When we first released it to the beta team it was announced as "here's some new firmware, give it a play". No hype. The responses were "holy cr@p, what did you do? This is amazing". There's just something about it that presses the right buttons.
 
I disagree with the making small clips and looping them, etc. That's too clinical and OCD.

Don`t get me wrong Cliff: I loaded yesterday 18 and forget time for three hours or so, falling into the deep :) I like making comparisons like this, because i´m interesetd in.

Perhaps it is really mostly a "feel" thing while interacting with the guitar and a tweaked sound. This comparison don`t show that: default settings with "blind" connected to any (and always the same) cab-ir. The fun starts, when the drive/master ratio compliment the right cab for the individual playing, we all know that...

It`s hard to describe: I think it was on some break up settings with fenders or dirty shirley or so ... when hit a note, the "center" of the note leave the "periphery" of bass/high response behind, it gets seperated or something ... can`t describe it, but it feels super nicely to play with it... and this is definitive "new" with 18. Perhaps i confuse this with "note attack", but .... i don`t know...

All i will say: I´m done with this comparison and from tomorrow on i will just have fun with the Axe :) Yesterday i got often a big grin on my face and must loudly lough out, because it was big fun to play... and i couldn`t stop .... and this is the "none scientific" part, but the important one: Pure Fun with the Axe-Fx! This time-consumption beast ... every time i switch it on ... i say to myself ... ok, only 10 Minutes, i want to check something out.... and BAMM ... 3 hours later of masturbate my guitar neck i realize that i have to switch the magic box off, because live is not just about Axe-Fx ... unfortunately.
 
I just spent the entire day playing, tweaking and A/B'ing 18 and 17.04. I have two XLs, so I left one untouched with my presets on 17.04 and then upgraded the other to 18. I then A/B'ed the presets as they were without tweaking, and there was definitely a difference between the two. For the better with 18, IMO, and definitely noticeable right off the bat. Then I took a break to clear the ears, and then tweaked the presets on the XL loaded with 18.

Note- I'm talking about my main 75 presets for the project I'm in right now. Now a lot of you will say "fuck, that's A LOT of presets", but it's only a portion of my presets. These particular presets cover everything from acoustic to funk to classic rock to metal to alternative and beyond, so I got my hands dirty with a lot of amps and a huge tonal palette. I started at 8am and it's now 9pm, but I got the entire lot dialed in just where I want 'em.

After tweaking, I then A/B'ed them again. Where there was definitely a difference to start, the change now was pretty startling. I've heard people on here say "it sounds 3Dish", and (again IMO) it does. There's a clarity that just wasn't as pronounced before. In a way it reminds me of the FW9 difference from previous FWs, and is definitely reminiscent of the way I felt when I discovered the true power of IRs and what they could do when properly used. Once I uncovered the magic of the "Crunch" knob and began to dial it in in conjunction with the Hi/Low passes and the Definition knob on my mid to gainier patches I was just awestruck. It was almost as if the Axe was forecasting what I was going to do in my pick attack and feel and made the connection between my hands and the guitars "as one". I shit you not, I was actually PLAYING better- the feel and the tone were pushing my mind and fingers into a new space, conjuring phrasing I hadn't used before. It sounds like hyperbole but it was real, and it was definitely exciting. I'm soooo looking forward to practicing tomorrow without the tweaking, just to see what happens when I'm locked just on the music and not on the creation of tone.

Another note- like I said, that was a shit ton of presets I dialed in. But what made being able to do it in only a days work was the fact that there wasn't a huge amount to do- the FW did a lot of the work. I tweaked, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't a crazy amount on any individual preset. Once I discovered "formulas" for various genres I simply applied that knowledge to the core set of presets in those genres. In the end it got to be very simple, actually, but the advances in tone were anything but. A huge tip of the hat to Cliff for a true evolution in modeling, can't really imagine where it goes from here but having watched his progression with the art over the years I have no doubt it's going to get even more amazing. Kudos!!!
 
I agree with Cliff in the feel difference vs sound difference. One is more obvious than the other! But then again, how can the best damn modeler on the universe be so much better after even a major firmware update! At this point, little things there and there gets improve.

To me, FW18, in it's beta form, his a major step that does not translate into a night and day comparison, but into all the littel details and nuances that were still missing or not optimal. Things like note separation, pick attack, 3D etc.

Now, put all those little improvements in a bowl and mix it with love and attention And you get FW18! Pure joy and excitement!and this is only the beginning. This little black box is gonna turn 18 officialy very soon!! Let's wait for the return of the king!!
 
As Cliff said , It's about the finer details and nuances of tube amps , much of that probably has quite a bit to do with feel ,but there definitely are quite noticeable differences for the better and I'm quite exited about it ! Some will Hear and feel it, some will maybe feel it and not hear it, others neither , I don't think anyone can demonstrate it if one doesn't hear it for themselves ???
 
I've heard people on here say "it sounds 3Dish", and (again IMO) it does.

This is where I don't get it. NONE of my amps in the real world sound 3D. My SLO100 does not, My Boogie Mk3's do not. My vintage Marshall amps including my all original 68 Plexi 50w small box do not.
I am going to put v18b on my Axe today. I am sure I will 'feel' and hear the difference.
I am glad their is a continued progress with the Axe's models. When I got mine, I could dial things in close enough that live, no one would know the difference but there were slight differences although mentioning the fact on here would get you flamed by the same people who go mental when there is an update :)
Now that the masses are completely happy with the Axe's amp models, any chance we can get some updates to the effects? Starting with the pitch block for taking things down a tone with a fixed latency and a sound truer to the original. That for me is one weak point in the Axe although again, it is good enough for the gigs I am using it for it but could be even better. Everything else in the unit sounds great.
Keep up the good work Fractal. I am impressed at the constant effort. Most companies would bring these improvements out as new models in the product line.
 
hopefully I'll have time for the WE to try them out, especially the ODS amps ;) For the scientific part, the more accurate a design get the more power and effort is needed to get there. I din't expect to hear day and night results in a simple sound comparison, just because the sound was also great with the previous firmware and closer to reality than most other dsp companies will be. Spoken from a players view, improving the feel and sonic details means improving enjoyment. It's like on various other amps, some of them feel great which makes you want to play them all day long. So you make Fw 18 sound better, because you feel better as a player, it improves your enjoyment....

I learned this recentely - the biggest compliment and given thanks we can send to FAS is to make music with the box and share it with our friends, other users and their friends......and maybe also how to win a friend back again ;)
 
Tube amps do several key things that provide certain psychological stimulation and create enjoyment. FW18 reproduces those nuances. It took nearly a year of studying amps to figure these secrets out and then getting that into code.
If you haven't played it, you won't understand. But as soon as you play it, you will understand.

One thing I noticed, the dynamics of the artificial harmonics is improved, I can get a harmonic from picking and hitting my thumb, but if I do it harder in the same way the difference is like "weeeeeeh" vs. "FUCKING WEEEAEAEEEAAEAAEeeeh! *80's vocalist*" - and that's using super old strings, it should not even be possible to make an artificial harmonic go "meh" with these strings.

also the overall character of a wannabe single coil split humbucker now sound way more like a single coil. it's insane. my Ibanez rga8 with a neck Ionizer split into a single coil now has got Jimi Hendrix strat kind of twang. How is that even possible. it's got twang!

a funny thing is that firmware 18 is more sensitive. that's one of the best ways I can describe it, more sensitivity to the small things - which again is a HUGE thing!

here comes the fun part - loading firmware 18 and starting to play with it, suddenly my high e string went all crazy sounding like a chorus pedal. It only happens using the bridge pickup and I think it has got to do with magnetic pull from the humbucker being way high - this was right after I plugged in to firmware 18. I switched guitar, now using rg2228 emg808 - bridge pickup, nope - sounding nice and clear on the high e string.

It's as if firmware 17.04 was not sensitive enough to pick up that crazy string doing it's own thing, I've been playing a lot with firmware 17.04 with my rga8 having my bridge pickup maybe too high, but that was not a problem then, sounded normal.

could firmware 18 be just a tad more sensitive to "pick up" the detail of my bridge pickup being just a hair too close to the string, making it go crazy?

firmware 17.04 seemed to be just that tad less sensitive to not "pick up" that detail.


jajajaja maybe I just have to change strings yada yada :p
 
I appreciate this thread--I won't be able to gig with the new FW till this weekend but at 'home volumes' through studio monitors I'm not noticing any drastic differences. Which IMO is to be expected--I find it extremely hard to believe folks are really experiencing jaw dropping differences once upgrading. Bottom line is that FW17.04 was pretty bad ass as it was and our brain's ability to 'recall' just isn't that good haha. Now Cliff, who designed all of this and is tweaking nuances on his Opal speakers with the prev FW right there to compare... different story. But home player guy I'm really thinking is just convincing himself here?
 
Download the firmware, install it and enjoy it. It's not a science project. It's an art project. Make some music with it.

Will do! But I've got way too much going on right now to risk loading the beta, so this comparison and other folks clips will have to satisfy my curiosity for now. I'll wait for the full release and for when I have a break. Thanks for going the extra mile and pushing the limit.
 
Another thing I've noticed (call it placebo if you will) is different guitars (LP ,Strat, different pickups) sound better with the same patch without tweaking it ,yet have their own character.
 
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I noticed what you are talking about right away. There are nuances to the pick attack, the roundness of the notes, the way the amps respond that are dramatic and glorious. A tone that I have always wanted but never (until now) been able to attain was the bloom of a cranked Vitoria Double Deluxe. FW18 gets there for me. The bloom and grit are amazing. .

I still don't hear much difference. Yet when I play the two versions side-by-side I hear and feel a considerable difference. Perhaps it's mostly feel and that doesn't translate to recordings.

I disagree with the making small clips and looping them, etc. That's too clinical and OCD. It's all about the feel and the "mojo". Download the firmware, install it and enjoy it. It's not a science project. It's an art project. Make some music with it. FW18 is inspiring to play for whatever reason. Actually I know the reasons but I can't share that. The reason that people are freaking out is that FW18 is all about certain subtle nuances that fine tube amps have but that modelers don't, or did not until now. Tube amps do several key things that provide certain psychological stimulation and create enjoyment. FW18 reproduces those nuances. It took nearly a year of studying amps to figure these secrets out and then getting that into code.

If you haven't played it, you won't understand. But as soon as you play it, you will understand. When we first released it to the beta team it was announced as "here's some new firmware, give it a play". No hype. The responses were "holy cr@p, what did you do? This is amazing". There's just something about it that presses the right buttons.
 
I have been a Fractal user going back to the Standard days and worked my way up to the XL. I have gone through ever firmware upgrade issued since I purchased the Standard and all those upgrades I never felt compelled to post how great and different it was from the previous version, not that previous upgrades weren't good, they were just not dramatic in my opinion. So trust me that I'm not a 'fanboy'.

Well that's changing right now because after playing with V18 last night I can say it is a dramatic change. I'm a clean to mid gain guy and the clarity, chime, dynamics and overall tone improvement hit me as soon as I hit the first chord. I finished the night playing my Deluxe Verb patch very softly and I was getting pinch harmonics without effort that rang out and washed over me. Ever nuance of my picking was picked up, even at low volume. Just incredible! I went bed feeling like a school boy that just got his first kiss. I cant' wait for work to be done so I can go home and get back at it.

So all I can say is that after chasing tone for 40 years that I have finally found it.

Thank you Cliff!!
 
I still don't hear much difference. Yet when I play the two versions side-by-side I hear and feel a considerable difference. Perhaps it's mostly feel and that doesn't translate to recordings.

I disagree with the making small clips and looping them, etc. That's too clinical and OCD. It's all about the feel and the "mojo". Download the firmware, install it and enjoy it. It's not a science project. It's an art project. Make some music with it. FW18 is inspiring to play for whatever reason. Actually I know the reasons but I can't share that. The reason that people are freaking out is that FW18 is all about certain subtle nuances that fine tube amps have but that modelers don't, or did not until now. Tube amps do several key things that provide certain psychological stimulation and create enjoyment. FW18 reproduces those nuances. It took nearly a year of studying amps to figure these secrets out and then getting that into code.

If you haven't played it, you won't understand. But as soon as you play it, you will understand. When we first released it to the beta team it was announced as "here's some new firmware, give it a play". No hype. The responses were "holy cr@p, what did you do? This is amazing". There's just something about it that presses the right buttons.


Good post.
Look - the AXE FX II has been pretty great since FW version 1.

What keeps getting better is the feel and engagement with playing technique that one gets with a tube amp.
The overall playing experience keeps improving.

Thanks for all of your efforts.
 
I think i have to add, that my first impressions two days ago with FW18 were massive! My first thoughts were something like "wow ... this is really ... great, ... feels super liquid and super easy to tweak ... really big improvement ....". After this first massive and very positive impression i was interested how much difference must be happened after 17.04 to leave such a impressive impression to me. THIS was the motivation for all this comparison!

So, in fact, ... i assumed to hear massive differences when ABing the correspondending tracks after recording FW17.04 & FW18. And THIS was the surprise, that these differences were much much smaller, than i expected them. But they ARE there, no doubt.

So, i get in conflict with myself now ... what`s going on here? How can that be? These (smaller) differences i hear on the recordings don`t reflect my thoughts and imperssions, when i (first) played FW18.

Meanwhile i come to conclusion, that these small audible differences you hear side by side in the tracks are something like "static measurement results", which will have a much more and huge impact, when playing in realtime, so they unfold "dynamically" and affect the subjective feel dramatically, at least much more, than the "static sample recording" can show.

Or as metaphor: On frequency magnitude plot of an IR don`t show the phase. But influence the phase result in a different sound result, but the plot of frequency response stays the same.....

So, this is my assumption so far to repacify the small audible differences of my (still valid) comparison and the big differences we all "feel" and notice while playing FW18 in comparson to older Firmwares...

Hope you understand what i try to say, ... my english is extremely limited, i know....
 
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I still don't hear much difference. Yet when I play the two versions side-by-side I hear and feel a considerable difference. Perhaps it's mostly feel and that doesn't translate to recordings.

I disagree with the making small clips and looping them, etc. That's too clinical and OCD. It's all about the feel and the "mojo". Download the firmware, install it and enjoy it. It's not a science project. It's an art project. Make some music with it. FW18 is inspiring to play for whatever reason. Actually I know the reasons but I can't share that. The reason that people are freaking out is that FW18 is all about certain subtle nuances that fine tube amps have but that modelers don't, or did not until now. Tube amps do several key things that provide certain psychological stimulation and create enjoyment. FW18 reproduces those nuances. It took nearly a year of studying amps to figure these secrets out and then getting that into code.

If you haven't played it, you won't understand. But as soon as you play it, you will understand. When we first released it to the beta team it was announced as "here's some new firmware, give it a play". No hype. The responses were "holy cr@p, what did you do? This is amazing". There's just something about it that presses the right buttons.

I absolutely have the same impressions and feelings about the results here. I think in the clip, there's actually a great example of it: at the very end of the very first riff, OP does a little tremelo arm play. In FW18 there's just something about it that brings a satisfying tube amp feel. Like when you finish that song, grab the trem-arm and let that last note ring out. I've done it so many times that those 3 seconds in this clip really stand out to me. 17.04 sounds great overall but doesn't bring the same feeling when I listen to that part of the track, specifically.
 
I still don't hear much difference. Yet when I play the two versions side-by-side I hear and feel a considerable difference. Perhaps it's mostly feel and that doesn't translate to recordings.

I disagree with the making small clips and looping them, etc. That's too clinical and OCD. It's all about the feel and the "mojo". Download the firmware, install it and enjoy it. It's not a science project. It's an art project. Make some music with it. FW18 is inspiring to play for whatever reason. Actually I know the reasons but I can't share that. The reason that people are freaking out is that FW18 is all about certain subtle nuances that fine tube amps have but that modelers don't, or did not until now. Tube amps do several key things that provide certain psychological stimulation and create enjoyment. FW18 reproduces those nuances. It took nearly a year of studying amps to figure these secrets out and then getting that into code.

If you haven't played it, you won't understand. But as soon as you play it, you will understand. When we first released it to the beta team it was announced as "here's some new firmware, give it a play". No hype. The responses were "holy cr@p, what did you do? This is amazing". There's just something about it that presses the right buttons.

Yes. This.

The modern electric guitar is a strange instrument when thought of by traditional standards. In its simplest common form it's not actually a complete instrument until you add an amplifier.

In essence the whole system is a self adjusting musical feedback loop (Player->guitar->effects->amp->ears of player) which changes itself accordingly dependant on the ever changing interactions between each stage. Importantly, each stage of the system can have a dramatic influence on and in some cases DICTATES the MUSICAL output of the system.

In a rather obvious way, it's like The Edge's delay pedal. Listen to the same parts with the delay pedal bypassed. The delay effect as part of the system fundamentally dictates the MUSICAL output of the whole system!

In a less obvious way, it's the specific way in which a particular tube amp sags, or the non-linearity of its clipping etc. and how your fingers react to it.

I discovered a lot about the player's role in this system of infinite variables a few years ago, when reamping became part of the standard workflow of many in the industry when producing heavy guitar based recordings. This isn't to say that reamping isn't a valid tool in the studio and cannot be done well- it certainly can.

However when I was reamping more and more, I started to notice a profound difference in the marriage between the overall tone and performance quality when reamping a part recorded through a different amp. This was profoundly different than using the original performance scratch track, or retracking the part using the new amp. This wasn't necessarily a problem caused simply by reamping through amps that were wildly different from the original performance. In one case I even noticed a big difference when I was reamping through a different example of the same model of amp!

Interestingly, this was never much of an issue when reamping the DI through the exact amp and cab setup used to track the original... Funny eh?

I believe it's those subtle differences that a good player reacts to in their playing but a DI cannot.

As its essential that you don't have a broken electrical connection between your drive pedal and your amp as much as its essential to not have a broken connection between the player and the system. It's the feel, the response to pick attack, the '3d', the thump, the 'amp in the room' it's the elusive 1% difference between a tube amp and a modeller that makes all the difference and in my opinion it can have a profound effect on the player. When a system works well in this particular way, people refer to it as 'inspiring' to play or it has 'mojo'.

In the past I've been quite vocal about the amps previous firmwares not 'feeling connected enough' until 17.03 which was when things started to really align.

Cliff is constantly chasing that last 1%- even to the point of rewriting the fundamental algorithms... That's why I'm in awe of what a mammoth task this whole thing is. The sheer amount and nature of the variables is mind boggling.

I wouldn't be surprised if in Cliff's search for the final 1% he accidentally stumbles upon a model which unifies quantum field theory and general relativity...

I look forward to trying 18b tomorrow!

Thanks Cliff.
 
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