No One Really Knows Why—Is This True? (Science Geeky)

biskitboy said:
After recovering from my head exploding by the video that @Toopy14 showed. I have some thoughts which are probably not even close to being correct. :)

Is seems to me that the act of hitting that stringless guitar is somehow altering the existing electromagnetic field and causing interference. This in turn is being amplified (by an incredible degree in this case). I wonder if things like this are at play here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(electromagnetism)

On a side note, I'm not sure this really affects much of the character of the tone because my guess it's being greatly amplified to prove a point. I would think the other aspects already mentioned above are what are really changing the characteristics of the tone.
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Arguably the biggest problem with this topic is that very last point 'characteristics of the tone' and how that can be objectively measured without bias.
 
massless said:
Arguably the biggest problem with this topic is that very last point 'characteristics of the tone' and how that can be objectively measured without bias.
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You can measure tone with respect to tamber, frequencies of overtones present... basically everything that an impulse response contains. That is all objective. The only subjective part is whether the listener finds it pleasing to hear, and what sounds "good". That's where all the discussion comes from. Without those discussions the computer hosting this forum would have physically less mass.
 
I agree completely. But perceived tone, which it what is usually meant in these discussions is more often a complex psychological and psychoacoustic phenomenon. Placebo playing a huge role.

You could design an experiment to answer a lot of the questions about guitar material and it's measurable effects but I think it would be fairly expensive to do properly.
 
Then there's also the factor of your body physically placed against the instrument affecting the timbre. If you don't believe me, record yourself direct playing the guitar. Next sit down, keep the guitar 6 to eight inches away from your torso and record yourself direct again. You will notice a subtle difference between the two recordings in terms of tone.
 
dr bonkers said:
Then there's also the factor of your body physically placed against the instrument affecting the timbre. If you don't believe me, record yourself direct playing the guitar. Next sit down, keep the guitar 6 to eight inches away from your torso and record yourself direct again. You will notice a subtle difference between the two recordings in terms of tone.
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You're right I don't believe you :)

Could you think of other reasons that the tone might change in that situation because I can think of several?
 
Pwrmac7600 said:
Yeah, familiar with microphonics. Just making the point that if pickup tone was solely based on vibrations then you wouldn't hear anything with the pickup removed from the body. But because of microphonics the pickup is doing more than just picking up vibrations.
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I think this exactly illustrates my point--the pickup doesn't respond directly to what you and I sense as vibrations. It only responds to disturbances in the electromagnetic field, for which it doesn't need to be attached to anything at all. When the pickup is removed from the guitar body, the metallic stuff or whatever that was making waves in the electromagnetic field is still making those same waves and the pickup is still responding to them. It doesn't care if everyones attached to the same piece of wood because wood isn't magnetic. The pickup also doesn't care that it's not physically attached to that fluorescent light or dimmer that's making it go buzzzzz.
Thats my question. If the pickup doesn't even care if it's attached to the guitar body, why does the body have such a dramatic effect on the sound?
 
Frequencies (music, tone, sound, vibrations etc...) = somethings cancel certain ones and somethings strengthen certain ones. Somethings = you and all the parts that make up the instrument and amplification system, and to a lesser extent the environment these things are in.
 
ETOLKIEN said:
There are some stone guitars, but I find that something is missing...it also weighs a lot hahaha!



There's a cardboard guitar, still an organic material, but I don't buy it
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The cardboard is impregnated with resin for strength, so it's more like a plastic guitar with a cardboard skeleton.
 
FractalAudio said:
The vibration characteristics of the strings are dependent upon the size, shape, material, etc. of the body along with a host of other things. These instruments characteristics imprint themselves onto the vibration pattern of the strings which affects the relative amplitudes (and phase) of the harmonics and the envelope of those harmonics. The pickups simply (more or less) translate the vibration of the strings into an electric current.

The instrument is resonant so when you pluck a string certain harmonics are emphasized. The type of wood, shape, etc. affects the frequency and Q of the various resonances which, in turn, affects which harmonics are emphasized and and their decay characteristics. You can think of a stringed instrument as a formant synthesizer. There are dozens (hundreds?) of resonances at various frequencies with differing Q's. The vibrating string generates acoustic energy by displacing air molecules. The intensity of the sound is proportional to the string displacement. The vibrating string also induces a current in the pickup that is very similar since the current is proportional to the string displacement.
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Cliff, i feel confident for a Fractal stringed instrument in the future! ;)
 
ETOLKIEN said:
There are some stone guitars, but I find that something is missing...it also weighs a lot hahaha!

Would a hollow stone guitar sound different than a solid one--thru an amp?

Also...
Does a 34lb hollow stone guitar weigh less than a 34lb solid one?
o_O
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massless said:
You're right I don't believe you :)

Could you think of other reasons that the tone might change in that situation because I can think of several?
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perhaps you could list those other reasons rather than just vaguely alluding to them? Just recording & strumming an E major chord illustrates my point. I would love to hear what other variables that experiment produces.
 
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dr bonkers said:
perhaps you could list those other reasons rather than just vaguely alluding to them? Just recording & strumming an E major chord illustrates my point. I would love to hear what other variables that experiment produces.
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1 Confirmation bias
2 placebo
3 it's a fundamentally non-repeatable experiment (in terms of variable control)
4 you play differently if you move to a different position

Your 'experiment' is designed to confirm what you think you already know. That's bad science.
 
massless said:
1 Confirmation bias
2 placebo
3 it's a fundamentally non-repeatable experiment (in terms of variable control)
4 you play differently if you move to a different position

Your 'experiment' is designed to confirm what you think you already know. That's bad science.
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Items (1) and (2) could be said about any experiment. Your application of these items indicates that you have an opinion about whether @dr bonkers had an opinion before he tried it.

As for item (3), this is repeatable to within a fraction of an inch, if one cares to be so precise.

Item (4) may or may not apply here.


You stated you don't believe @dr bonkers premise, but you've offered no support for your position (personally, I'll take observation over belief). How would you design this experiment to "scientificate" it?
 
I'll be the dick for science, I don't mind.

Just because those biases are always present doesn't make my criticism of his method invalid, does it.
 
My point was really to get dr bonkers to think about how he might improve his method and see if it really is the case that his body contact with a solid electric guitar affects the pickup signal (and not due to the other factors I mentioned, or something else)

Of course if you just want your opinion validated....
 
massless said:
My point was really to get dr bonkers to think about how he might improve his method and see if it really is the case that his body contact with a solid electric guitar affects the pickup signal (and not due to the other factors I mentioned, or something else)

Of course if you just want your opinion validated....
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Your objections are weak sauce. If you want to pretend to be scientific, at least give me the physics. Confirmation bias would be if I designed an experiment with an outcome in mind. Nowhere did I say that. Thanks for playing.
 
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