My construction of Gapless Presets

Dr. Faustus said:
Major breakthrough, here. What do you think, Joe?

SoE allow me to ask for an example preset once you have the functionality the way you like it. This seems like a very valuable skill to have and understand.
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Of course! But I get so in the weeds with this shit it may be a very different deal by the time I actually construct it. Plus, any preset that sounds great on my guitar might sound like ass on any another haha.

I'm working out an idea based on this right now, in fact. You'd select a different PEQ using different Channel for each pickup type (Quack 1, Quack 2, Single-Coil, Humbucker), different Scene for each Amp (using Scene Controllers for the amount of gain, using all eight Scenes), and amp model via Amp Channel. You'd have four different amp models in Amp 1, one for each Channel, then copy all four Channels to Amp 2. Set Scene Ignore for every single block; Scene Controllers will still work for the amps.

So, for your first tone, select the PEQ channel to support your pickup, then your Amp Channel for the amp model, then your Scene for the amp's gain. Then, do the same for the next tone, but do it on the other row! Finally to switch to that other tone gaplessly, toggle the Mutliplexer Channel.

Amp 1: Different Amp on Each Channel
InputPEQCabOutput
Amp 2: Different Amp on Each Channel
FC12 Layout 1
Amp 2 PEQ: Quack 1, Quack 2, Single Coil, HumuckerAmp 2
Channel A		Amp 2
Channel B		Amp 2
Channel C		Amp 2
Channel D
Multiplexer ToggleAmp 1 PEQ: Quack 1, Quack 2, Single Coil, HumuckerAmp 1
Channel A		Amp 1
Channel B		Amp 1
Channel C		Amp 1
Channel D
Any Channel selection brings up new Layout, for the Amount of Gain:
FC12 Layout 2
Layout 1Amp 2 PEQ: Quack 1, Quack 2, Single Coil, HumuckerScene 5Scene 6Scene 7Scene 8
Multiplexer ToggleAmp 1 PEQ: Quack 1, Quack 2, Single Coil, HumuckerScene 1Scene 2Scene 3Scene 4
 
yyz67 said:
Love your humorous reversal from Aug 22.

I guess there are those who still really want 0.0 ms or a smooth transition (like morphing).

It's all good and the box can do any of it!
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The thing for me all along is just to get it imperceptible, the Multiplexers, Mixer Blocks, and Scene Controllers can all do that, I just stuck to those methods. I never measured any of this, just went with what I could tell was a gap and tried to avoid it. @GlennO has actually measured a gap of between 20 - 40 ms in FW 22.00 Amp Channel switching, but Dude, I can't perceive it. Especially for tone switching, what do I care? It takes a hot second for me to switch pickups too. But the audible gap thing has always kind of bothered me, on real amps too, so I'm just grateful this exists now. 🙂

Interesting that you read this as a reversal of what I used to think though; I really hoped all along that a future hardware unit by Fractal would allow gapless Channel switching. I'm amazed and beyond gratified that it happened now with the current hardware. 🙂
 
State of Epicicity said:
Okay, I'm doing more extensive testing tonight for my obsession with gaplessness, so I've discovered that, to maintain no perceptible break in the sound, you're going to want not to change Cab Block Channels; this applies to both Legacy and DynaCabs. You can use the Multiplexer or Mixer Block, maybe incorporating instances of the IR Player if you'd like. Or you could keep each Cab Block on one channel. Or, you could simply not use the Cab Blocks at all for this purpose and just use the IR Player Blocks instead. Those do seem not to cause any break in the sound when switching channels. Many ways still to stay gapless...

View attachment 122045
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State of Epicicity said:
I did a test just now, and that worked: You keep one Cab Block on Channel A in every Scene, loading the totally flat IR, Factory 2 #1024, setting the Mic Pre to High Quality and adjust Gain and Saturation to taste. Now set two IR Player Blocks in parallel feeding into it. You can use a Multiplexer here if you want too. Now you can have eight different IR Player Channels, gapless, going into the one Cab Block. It does work.

But I love the Dyna Cabs!

So I'm going to revert to the idea I had been using most recently before this official release, and still forgoing Channels. I did some side by side testing, and although the Channel switching is so damn fast, it's still not the same as the Multiplexer, Mixer, and Scene Controller method. So I think I'll revert to have two identical rows of two parallel Drive Blocks feeding into one Amp Block and one Cab Block. If I'm on the top row, I start selecting whichever drive, amp and cab channel I want on the bottom row while I'm still playing, then, when I want to switch, just hit that last Multiplexer or Mixer Block before the Output Block to make the completely seamless change. This allows for the use of everything, and is the most gapless method. For complete craziness, you can use Scene Ignore on every Block that allows it, and use Scene Controllers on top of that for one hell of a versatile gapless preset. If I calculate it correctly, you could go the most crazy with it this way, so that for one row you have 9 drives (two drive blocks, with four channels each, including bypass of both for no drive at all) X 4 Amps (one amp block with four channels, X 7 cabs with a mic pre (4 IR Player channels, plus 3 more IR in a cab block, with its fourth channel set to the Totally Flat IR, with the Mic Pre set to taste for all seven IRs) = 9 X 4 X 7 = 262 gapless tones.

So of course that's ludicrous, but it just shows the limitlessness of this. I'm keeping this post in this thread because it is relevant to the faster Channel switching, and I'll quote it in my gapless thread.

By the way, I know what I describing requires a lot of manual tap dancing, but if Eric Johnson can do it, so can I!
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State of Epicicity said:
More on the new Amp Channel switching:

I have been conflating some of my personal preset style with common usage, and that was totally wrong, so I'm reverting to my initial reaction, that what we have is functionally gapless, and you really don't need any crazy workarounds.

I had this nagging questioning in the back of my head, so I checked everything with fresh ears today, and I found that Cab Channel switching does not have any perceptible gap with Dyna Cabs, whether you change cab type or just mic type, it doesn't matter; it's functionally gapless, and Amp Channel switching is so fast I cannot imagine it ever mattering; it's faster than some real world amps, and fast enough for any section change in a song, or even in a logical break in a solo or something like that.

Here's where I was going wrong with my thinking: I like to create presets where different Scenes are the equivalent of rolling off my volume and tone knobs, just making subtle changes to the tone in the middle of play. I do that with PEQ blocks, Drives, or Amps, using Scene Controllers with Attack and Release set to 0 and Update Rate set to fast for the modifiers. And I'm so in my own head that I was carrying that one use case over to amp type switching, which is not what amp switching is ever for! So in any reasonable usage the Amp Channel switching that we have now is absolutely perfect.

I retested today with an eight amp preset and no Multiplexer, and I found no difference in the speed of switching amps than if you just use one Amp Block.

Drive Block Channels are just as fast as Cab Block Channels, to my ears, also perceptibly gapless.

Long Live Amp, Drive, and Cab Channels!
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State of Epicicity said:
The thing for me all along is just to get it imperceptible, the Multiplexers, Mixer Blocks, and Scene Controllers can all do that, I just stuck to those methods. I never measured any of this, just went with what I could tell was a gap and tried to avoid it. @GlennO has actually measured a gap of between 20 - 40 ms in FW 22.00 Amp Channel switching, but Dude, I can't perceive it. Especially for tone switching, what do I care? It takes a hot second for me to switch pickups too. But the audible gap thing has always kind of bothered me, on real amps too, so I'm just grateful this exists now. 🙂

Interesting that you read this as a reversal of what I used to think though; I really hoped all along that a future hardware unit by Fractal would allow gapless Channel switching. I'm amazed and beyond gratified that it happened now with the current hardware. 🙂
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So.. not to thow cold water on this but depending on the Amps you are switching I get big noticable gaps. I have just loaded a stock set USA JPIIC+ Red and a USA JPIIC+ Yellow. switching between just the two amps gives me a very perceptible gap. looks to be around 30ms
I have to say, not all amp channel switching does this, but these two do and so i have to use the Mixer trick to lose the gap.
I dont know if the Turbo version of the AXFXIII makes any difference as I have the Mark II non turbo.

1689081557523.png
 
AngusV said:
So.. not to thow cold water on this but depending on the Amps you are switching I get big noticable gaps. I have just loaded a stock set USA JPIIC+ Red and a USA JPIIC+ Yellow. switching between just the two amps gives me a very perceptible gap. looks to be around 30ms
I have to say, not all amp channel switching does this, but these two do and so i have to use the Mixer trick to lose the gap.
I dont know if the Turbo version of the AXFXIII makes any difference as I have the Mark II non turbo.

View attachment 123237
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You have to factor in that some people are more sensitive to this issue than others. I'm quite sensitive to it, and have sold guitar amplifiers and pedal switchers in the past that had such an issue!

I remember on the old Musicradar forums there was a big fight about the Marshall JVM, because a bunch of us were complaining about the channel switching latency/gap/silence issue, and a bunch of other people kept telling us we were so-and-so's for thinking it was an issue. But depending on your music, these kinds of things can make or break a performance - I totally get it.

I think the Axe3 is pretty capable in this area. It isn't perfect and there's room for improvement, but there are architectural limitations. It'll never disappear 100% because of the uber-flexible nature of the Axe FX.
 
AngusV said:
So.. not to thow cold water on this but depending on the Amps you are switching I get big noticable gaps. I have just loaded a stock set USA JPIIC+ Red and a USA JPIIC+ Yellow. switching between just the two amps gives me a very perceptible gap. looks to be around 30ms
I have to say, not all amp channel switching does this, but these two do and so i have to use the Mixer trick to lose the gap.
I dont know if the Turbo version of the AXFXIII makes any difference as I have the Mark II non turbo.

View attachment 123237
Click to expand...

I haven't tried that combination, so I'll give it a shot next time I can play. I'll have to see if that's a threshold of time that would be too much for me. I didn't measure any of the gaps myself, just went by the feel. Thanks for bringing this up; I think the more scenarios people test, the better.
 
AngusV said:
So.. not to thow cold water on this but depending on the Amps you are switching I get big noticable gaps. I have just loaded a stock set USA JPIIC+ Red and a USA JPIIC+ Yellow. switching between just the two amps gives me a very perceptible gap. looks to be around 30ms
I have to say, not all amp channel switching does this, but these two do and so i have to use the Mixer trick to lose the gap.
I dont know if the Turbo version of the AXFXIII makes any difference as I have the Mark II non turbo.

View attachment 123237
Click to expand...

I forgot to mention I'm using the same unit, the Axe-FX III Mark II, Non-Turbo.
 
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