Muddy high gain sound

kavevester

kavevester

Inspired
I seem to end up with a muddy tone no matter what I do. Lots of caps (Ownhammer) and lots of presets (Fremen) have been tried out and lots of them are very exciting
and sounds good but when it comes to high gain structure presets I feel the sound gets muddy. I have the CLR wedges from Atomic (should be top quality) and I believe I have
adjusted them correctly (lights up with max guitar playing - adjusted on the output from the Axe). I miss a warm, clear and harmonic chrunch/distortion but kind of get lost in
all the variables like: (Using my Gibson LP GT, - has a very high output)

Axe settings (amp, eq, gain structures, microphones ect.)
Cabs and cabs settings

It's just when I think about these 3 main ingrediens like amp, cab, mic + all the settings to chose from I end up with so many combinations that I simply loose track of it all.
Also my ears cannot take any more after 30 minutes or 1 hour, it all sounds confusing and different than when I started. Need some kind of flow chart that simply states some
simple questions about what you want with sound I'm about to setup.

Know about some of Cliff's tricks like Character Frequency and Character - did'nt do much in this relation.

Any major knobs/settings I should concern myself about?
 
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A good place to start is the "bright" knob in the amp model block. And/or try turning down the bass and depth knobs. Activate the "cut" function. Fighting muddiness will be your life's vocation so long as you're using a humbucker-equipped guitar, especially a Les Paul ;)
 
Don't leave out the room in the discussion. Room nodes and anti nodes can dramatically asker frequency response in a given listening location. Do you have you monitors close to a wall?
 
Are you talking about a tone listened by itself or in a band situation or in a recording\home recording mix situation ?
Are really 3 different ways of thinking about your tone and his definition

I know this statement can be judged unusuful ... but .... less gain !!
Very much of this big sound we are appreciating from our heroes songs is a sum of a drive guitar (not so much) and the push in low frequencies of a bass (and kick )
my 2 cents with blind eyes and ears :)

Another useful tip can be added reading this http://forum.fractalaudio.com/cliffs-notes/80951-power-pre-eq.html
REALLY IMPORTANT to achieve this 10% always lacking in our tweakings
 
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My Les Pauls are definitely muddier than other humbucking guitars (e.g. JPMM, and even a Schecter Hellraiser with EMGs), in the same room & signal chain (either direct to studio monitors or CLR). In addition to turning on the Cut param (this is usually a given), I generally turn the Input Trim down to around 0.6-0.7 if more cleanup is necessary.

Note that some amps require this more than others, and not always based on the amount of gain. For example, the VHT, Mesa and Bogner high-gain channels usually require tweaking, but so do the Plexi and clean Fender models. To contrast, the Angle Severe, AFS-100 and Brit Pre seem pretty tight with little tweaking.
 
think about things that you habitually do when dialling in. do you always raise the master volume? high MV settings can kill clarity and tightness in some amps. do you use a drive before the amp? how are you setting it up? try the 808 mod with gain on 1 and level on 8 and see if that helps. do you change IR's when dialling in? choose an IR you like and then dial the amp to fit the IR. don't change the IR during the process if you can help it. if you really feel the IR isn't giving you what you want, load another cab block in parallel, drop the amp volume by 6db and find an IR that compliments the first...adding more mids, or more top and bottom. you can get into a downward tweaking spiral otherwise. everything you do should be moving you incrementally towards your goal.
 
Noriuky73 said:
I know this statement can be judged unusuful ... but .... less gain !!
Very much of this big sound we are appreciating from our heroes songs is a sum of a drive guitar (not so much) and the push in low frequencies of a bass (and kick )
Click to expand...

^^^This! Most folks use way too much gain and too much bass. The end result can be pretty ugly. The bass guitar track can fool you when it's doubling the guitar rhythm (so common in rock and metal). Pull back the lows especially in front of the amp. The Cut switch helps a lot if you have a darker sounding guitar. Post-EQ, try cutting out a little bit at around 200 to 250 Hz. That's where a lot of the mud lives. Some guitars, especially mahagony bodied ones, can be a bit tubby sounding for high gain tones. Also, how are your CLRs setup? It makes a pretty big difference on how they are sitting. Flat on the floor, they have a lot more bass than if they are up on a stand. If they are active, check the mode switch. To my ears, the TILT setting is a bit fatter in the upper bass and lower midrange, which might contribute to a muddy sound. I have mine on an amp stand and like the FF setting best, but I have the cab, not the wedge. It's also much easier to tweak tones when you have a constant reference to compare to. I like to play some backing music through the Axe via USB and use the track as a reference when dialing in tones. That way my reference tone is coming through the same speakers and it's easier to tell what frequencies need shaping. Isolated guitar tracks are even better. This also helps keep your tones mix friendly. What sounds great jamming alone usually disappears in a band mix.
 
javajunkie said:
Don't leave out the room in the discussion. Room nodes and anti nodes can dramatically asker frequency response in a given listening location. Do you have you monitors close to a wall?
Click to expand...

Yes my CLR's are 5 inches from the wall but they are closed at the back so should'nt be a problem, - right?
 
mine is tight has a ..... never mind...

you can do the classic, TS808 (drive 0, volume 10) into any relatively gainy amp, then cut some mids (500hz?)

and work from there,

this should be tight!!

good luck!

pm me if you need more help! (or chek youtube)
 
As stated by our fellows , mud is "always" to be serched in the low-mids between 200 and 600 hz maybe ... It really depends on the harmonic content of your tone .
A quick and super used trick ...almost by anyone who tried once to put hos hands on a mix or a track on a DAW ... Put a Peq and open 2nd modifier , put a Boost ... With a very narrow bell and +12/20db (+12 in the axe IIRC )
Now start slowly to move this bell arond the 200/450 ... Sure you will notice at list one frequencie where the sound ( obviously you have to listen to something during those fixes ) start to ring and became really awful and super boomy ... CONGRATULATION you have just found the first and maybe only cause of this muddy tone.
Now whit the same bell , scroll down the gain until -3db ( a good starting point) and start listening engaging and bypassing few times this Peq .
Let your ears judge ... Not the numbers ... There's no rule , sometimes -3db is way too much and so etimes you will need -8db or more , always close your eyes and ear

As a general rule is better to let a little "mud" than end with a lifeless sound ... Remember that mid are the frequencies most perceived by human ears so be careful
 
I have also been experimenting recently, based on many hints here in this forum and found this to work for me, quick and dirty:

- start with a new preset from scratch and don't bother with downloading presets from other users, put an amp and a cab somewhere in the middle of the sound chain
- amp: choose an amp based on the sound you wan't to achieve, set gain (a lot but not too much) and master level (lower for tightness but enough for punch) to your taste with the cab so as it is
- cab: choose an IR/cab that sounds somehow the closest to what you want (it should be a really short thing, no Axe Edit, just turn the knob on the device itself and make a quick selection, don't search for perfection, 5-10 min. max....most of the IRs will be just muddy or dark or whatever). After you find one that's better then the others, don't touch anything except low cut, set this to 100 Hz.
- for tightness, compression, focus: a) TS808 OD in front of the amp (like vondano mentioned above, only drive 0, tone 10...everything else as it is) or b) GEQ with a curve like this "Λ" (1 kHz in the middle, everything before 100 Hz all the way down, for beginning no boosts at all, 1 kHz is at 0 dB. After that you can adjust certain frequencies a bit if your missing something) or c) PEQ (in 1. page/frequency block everything till 100 Hz or even up to 250-300 Hz...play with the frequency knob until you find the balance between too muddy and too flat)
- return to the amp and adjust bass/middle/treble (try "cut" on the bass) and then brightness and presence

If this doesn't work, no mics, advanced settings or global settings will help you, buy a new guitar :)
 
Thank's. I'll try this procedure. Maybe the problem is elsewhere since many presets sounds really really great with my headphones (beyerdynamic DT-990 Pro) but changes a bit when switching to the 2 x Atomic CLR's when with the band..
Quite a pain in the neck since this FRFR system should produce with no signature. Then why the difference in sound? Maybe trying some other settings on the CLR's... Know that the AXE output should trigger the max light on the CLR's right? Normal in order to minimize noice.. But could try some other knob settings on the CLR to see if they are over the top in relation to input/master level... Hmm
 
That's a result of "Fletcher Munson Curve" (you'll find this everywhere on this forum), you perceive frequencies differently with different volume levels. That's one of the reasons why people mostly have presets for recording and presets for live playing. You should tweak your tones while playing in rehearsal room. I had the same problem not that long ago (I have a CLR too). The second problem might be that you have a great tone when playing alone and then you play with the band and it just sounds not right. Some frequencies overlap with other instruments and you get lost among them. Leave bass frequencies to the bass, scoop some middle range around the vokal (usually around 3 kHz) and reduce the higher frequencies (a real guitar cab goes only till 7-8 kHz...if i remember correctly...over 12 kHZ there's nothing to search for anyhow...it's the realm of cimbals). I found out that my favourite presets made with headphones sounded bad live and some other presets I didn't count on proved to be a way better.
 
also - you should never tweak patches on headphones. don't assume they're flat and don't assume they sound the same as the clr's. make your patches on the clr's. even doing it at reasonable bedroom volume would be better than doing it on headphones and expecting them to translate. just make sure they're a little less bright than you'd like, so when you turn up they'll be balanced.
 
simeon said:
also - you should never tweak patches on headphones. don't assume they're flat and don't assume they sound the same as the clr's. make your patches on the clr's. even doing it at reasonable bedroom volume would be better than doing it on headphones and expecting them to translate. just make sure they're a little less bright than you'd like, so when you turn up they'll be balanced.
Click to expand...

What if you are using in ears for live performance, I have a day of tech rehearsals where I just try and get the best possible sound in my ears and hope the sound designer can get a good sound out front.


Scent from my ismell
 
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