Moving to fractal from helix, need help!

[Paulzx]

Are you really sure???

The proof is in the pudding isn't it? I'll be able to say for sure but better people than me have made the switch up to now

 

[Paulzx]

I would think these Guys no a little about what the superior choice is

https://www.fractalaudio.com/artists/

Just s few credible endorsements then lol

 

[Paulzx]

Does anyone have experience with the room control on these speaker?

There's a trim switch for the high end and a switch for bass reduction. I've left the trim alone but the bass can reduce by 2db or 4db. Bearing in mind these hs5 speakers don't kick out much bass anyway, and are only about a foot away from the walls, the -4db setting produces the most pleasing cut through for the guitar but probably does lack a bit of balls. I seem to lose the cut through aspect if I use the -2 or 0 setting.

Anyway, just wondering what everyone is doing in similar situation. It's been mentioned about using global eq on the Helix etc and obviously you can eq in the presets themselves, but I want to get the optimum starting point with the speakers really

 

[laxu]

Does anyone have experience with the room control on these speaker?

There's a trim switch for the high end and a switch for bass reduction. I've left the trim alone but the bass can reduce by 2db or 4db. Bearing in mind these hs5 speakers don't kick out much bass anyway, and are only about a foot away from the walls, the -4db setting produces the most pleasing cut through for the guitar but probably does lack a bit of balls. I seem to lose the cut through aspect if I use the -2 or 0 setting.

Anyway, just wondering what everyone is doing in similar situation. It's been mentioned about using global eq on the Helix etc and obviously you can eq in the presets themselves, but I want to get the optimum starting point with the speakers really

A lot of studio monitors have something similar. There's probably some guidance in the manual on how they recommend using it but it mostly comes down to how your particular room behaves with the placement of the speakers where they are. If they are close to the walls, in a corner or on a desk then you most likely want to use some of the reduction features. The particular shape of the room can also have an effect and so do things that are in it. That's why you often see for example studios having a heavy rug on the wooden floor as it helps diffuse floor reflections.

Don't be afraid of less bass because boomy bass is no good for anything. Often less bass that stays better together just sounds better, especially if you add bass and drums. I would try how it sounds with varied content like playing music through the speakers vs playing guitar through it and see if you can find a setting on the speakers that works well for what you do most. Since Helix has a global EQ just use that to further tweak the sound to your liking and try that with multiple presets to ensure it works.

You can also use the Helix parametric EQ block at the end of your preset and setting a gain boost on a band and then sweeping the frequency knob can help you better hone in on where exactly you might have issues if something suddenly makes the sound very boomy, harsh etc. Then try a reduction and if that gets you closer to what you want, you could translate those to the closest global graphic EQ bands.

There isn't a clearcut right way to do this. The options on the studio monitors are generally quite limited but are an easy global EQ option that works well enough for anything hooked up. Since I use room correction from Sonarworks Reference ID room profile I made on my computers, I have disabled the bass cut switches on my Genelecs. On my modelers if I am hooked up to my studio monitors I use a graphic EQ setting that is based on the frequency curve from the room correction, even if it's not anywhere near as granular it works well enough to avoid the biggest issues in my space.

 

[Paulzx]

A lot of studio monitors have something similar. There's probably some guidance in the manual on how they recommend using it but it mostly comes down to how your particular room behaves with the placement of the speakers where they are. If they are close to the walls, in a corner or on a desk then you most likely want to use some of the reduction features. The particular shape of the room can also have an effect and so do things that are in it. That's why you often see for example studios having a heavy rug on the wooden floor as it helps diffuse floor reflections.

Don't be afraid of less bass because boomy bass is no good for anything. Often less bass that stays better together just sounds better, especially if you add bass and drums. I would try how it sounds with varied content like playing music through the speakers vs playing guitar through it and see if you can find a setting on the speakers that works well for what you do most. Since Helix has a global EQ just use that to further tweak the sound to your liking and try that with multiple presets to ensure it works.

You can also use the Helix parametric EQ block at the end of your preset and setting a gain boost on a band and then sweeping the frequency knob can help you better hone in on where exactly you might have issues if something suddenly makes the sound very boomy, harsh etc. Then try a reduction and if that gets you closer to what you want, you could translate those to the closest global graphic EQ bands.

There isn't a clearcut right way to do this. The options on the studio monitors are generally quite limited but are an easy global EQ option that works well enough for anything hooked up. Since I use room correction from Sonarworks Reference ID room profile I made on my computers, I have disabled the bass cut switches on my Genelecs. On my modelers if I am hooked up to my studio monitors I use a graphic EQ setting that is based on the frequency curve from the room correction, even if it's not anywhere near as granular it works well enough to avoid the biggest issues in my space.

Have to say I do like the sound better when the bottom end is taken off the speakers. You can't do that with the Alto's, which by comparison now dound virtually unusable with all that bass they kick out, you just don't realise until you compare.

The sound still needs a bit of eq tweaking, I think it's just a case of settling on a method of what to use where, and sticking to that

 

[la szum]

The proof is in the pudding isn't it? I'll be able to say for sure but better people than me have made the switch up to now

I was joking. Tried summing up the opinions of the Helix defenders in a few short words.

 

[Paulzx]

I was joking. Tried summing up the opinions of the Helix defenders in a few short words.

I know you were lol

 

[ak301]

Tonewoods DO matter. But so do the metal parts, electronics and the rest of the construction.

I can make all top tier modelers sound pretty much like a reference tone I picked.

Power tubes don't make as much difference as people think. There's a Marshall built with every powertube known to man and they still all sound like Marshalls. Not necessarily the same Marshall, but a Marshall nonetheless.

What were we talking about again?

I've always considered it like a recipe, each component part all matters and they all add up to the tone. Your hands, picks, strings, pickups, wood, etc etc etc

 

[laxu]

Have to say I do like the sound better when the bottom end is taken off the speakers. You can't do that with the Alto's, which by comparison now dound virtually unusable with all that bass they kick out, you just don't realise until you compare.

The sound still needs a bit of eq tweaking, I think it's just a case of settling on a method of what to use where, and sticking to that

Yeah if you like it it's fine. With the Altos you could try if the Helix global EQ can work for you, might need to significantly lop off the lowest bands.

Helix cab sims or IRs of course have low cuts as well but the slope on those isn't particularly aggressive nor is it configurable like it's on the Axe-Fx.

 

[Paulzx]

Yeah if you like it it's fine. With the Altos you could try if the Helix global EQ can work for you, might need to significantly lop off the lowest bands.

Helix cab sims or IRs of course have low cuts as well but the slope on those isn't particularly aggressive nor is it configurable like it's on the Axe-Fx.

I never thought of using the global EQ for the Alto's, might give that a try just for curiosity. I'm finding with the HS5's that because they tend to be more accurate, the sudden drop off of bass, really gives the guitar more clarity and it sounds good even on the heavier power chords, they are a lot more audible whereas on the Alto's they were just muddy and in retrospect, I wasn't hearing what the guitar actually sounds like at all, it was just covered in a layer of shit to be perfectly frank.

What really excites me is the prospect of having much better speaker set up now, and testing the FM3 through it

 

[rsvette12]

that’s a first. I’ve thought the helix sucked for U2 presets, i haven’t heard one good helix U2 cover. Did you happen to buy the fractal presets from a vendor here? I’ve heard nothing but great reviews and demos from Edosounds.

Yes Edo - not impressed sorry on my setup sounds terrible - prob on my end

 

[DallasGlenn2005]

Yes Edo - not impressed sorry on my setup sounds terrible - prob on my end

I don’t have a dog in this hunt, but for the benefit of anyone else who stumbles across this post, I’m going to add some balance, and I mean no slight to the poster. Just adding a different opinion. I have quite a few of Edo’s preset packs. And I’ve played them through monitors at home and an FRFR cab live. I think the fx3 and his presets sound remarkably accurate - particularly the Cygnus updates. And I’ve owned an ac30, 2290, sdd3k, etc. in the past for comparison. One caveat is that my setup does include U2 friendly/accurate guitars: a couple strats (one the edge signature), LP Std, and ‘76 Explorer (Ltd. Edition reissue) which I match to the appropriate preset. The presets are not cheap, but I know that he puts a lot of time and effort into them which I’m willing to pay for. My 2cents.

 

[rsvette12]

I don’t have a dog in this hunt, but for the benefit of anyone else who stumbles across this post, I’m going to add some balance, and I mean no slight to the poster.

I am listening thru quality headphones and amp not playing thru speakers at the moment - may be the reason they are not good on my end

 

[Paulzx]

Yeah if you like it it's fine. With the Altos you could try if the Helix global EQ can work for you, might need to significantly lop off the lowest bands.

Helix cab sims or IRs of course have low cuts as well but the slope on those isn't particularly aggressive nor is it configurable like it's on the Axe-Fx.

Hmm it's actually quite hard to crack this. While I'm planning my fm3 purchase I am in the mean time dialling in various settings again on the Helix, using the new yamaha speakers and the alto speakers just to see what can be achieved. Now I'm down this rabbit hole I might aswell inflict the full amount of pain on myself possible, and of course I've ended up right back in the traditional Helix world of forever tweaking.

The alto speakers are big and sound big but they're dark, even when you try to eq your way around it, it's hard to get a satisfactory result. I think they would be better in a large rehearsal room but I don't think they're great at bedroom levels.

The hs5s are a lot smaller, less bottom end, so you end up having to turn off most of your low cuts and dial back your mids or else it sounds like a transistor radio and I don't like thin sounding guitar tones, so inevitably you end up re doing all your bloody patches again, but they are a better starting point I think particularly if using a new processor such as the fractal. You can get some decent bass out of the speakers if you don't eq it out in your preset, the bottom end is less boomy which is an improvement.

Overall the Helix is sounding better, particularly with the stock cabs for some reason, which I hated through the Alto's, but again, it really is endless tweaking to get anything decent. I'll be interested to see what the fm3 sounds like out of the box. My hope is that I can dial in good tones fairly quickly and settle on that. With the Helix I seem to be tweaking patches almost every time I switch it on to do some playing.

 

[la szum]

With the Helix I seem to be tweaking patches almost every time I switch it on to do some playing.

There's fun tweaking and not so fun tweaking. That doesn't sound like fun tweaking to me.

 

[laxu]

Hmm it's actually quite hard to crack this. While I'm planning my fm3 purchase I am in the mean time dialling in various settings again on the Helix, using the new yamaha speakers and the alto speakers just to see what can be achieved. Now I'm down this rabbit hole I might aswell inflict the full amount of pain on myself possible, and of course I've ended up right back in the traditional Helix world of forever tweaking.

The alto speakers are big and sound big but they're dark, even when you try to eq your way around it, it's hard to get a satisfactory result. I think they would be better in a large rehearsal room but I don't think they're great at bedroom levels.

The hs5s are a lot smaller, less bottom end, so you end up having to turn off most of your low cuts and dial back your mids or else it sounds like a transistor radio and I don't like thin sounding guitar tones, so inevitably you end up re doing all your bloody patches again, but they are a better starting point I think particularly if using a new processor such as the fractal. You can get some decent bass out of the speakers if you don't eq it out in your preset, the bottom end is less boomy which is an improvement.

Overall the Helix is sounding better, particularly with the stock cabs for some reason, which I hated through the Alto's, but again, it really is endless tweaking to get anything decent. I'll be interested to see what the fm3 sounds like out of the box. My hope is that I can dial in good tones fairly quickly and settle on that. With the Helix I seem to be tweaking patches almost every time I switch it on to do some playing.

That's pretty normal for dealing with different speakers, rooms etc where each has its own problems. You either make separate presets for each of them or you use global EQ to correct. Fractal is a bit better in this regard because it has two global EQs per output (graphic and parametric) which you can use as kind of presets for your different devices whereas Helix just has a single global graphic EQ that can be turned on/off.

I'd recommend looking at say reviews of the output systems you have and see if you can find some plots where the speakers have clear dips and bumps in their frequency response and then you can try to compensate for those with global EQ. Otherwise you would have to measure the room response which gets more complicated or try to balance them out by ear. That's why those little dip switches on studio monitors are often more straightforward when you don't have too many options to try.

With Fractal maybe you can get sounds out of the box that are more to your liking but issues with output systems are still very real on that as well.

 

[Paulzx]

There's fun tweaking and not so fun tweaking. That doesn't sound like fun tweaking to me.

It's fun if it's rewarding and brief but with the Helix it's a career. No doubt better tweakers get better results but for me it takes a long time to get anything I'm remotely happy with. I'm hoping the fm3 solves that to a degree

 

[Paulzx]

That's pretty normal for dealing with different speakers, rooms etc where each has its own problems. You either make separate presets for each of them or you use global EQ to correct. Fractal is a bit better in this regard because it has two global EQs per output (graphic and parametric) which you can use as kind of presets for your different devices whereas Helix just has a single global graphic EQ that can be turned on/off.

I'd recommend looking at say reviews of the output systems you have and see if you can find some plots where the speakers have clear dips and bumps in their frequency response and then you can try to compensate for those with global EQ. Otherwise you would have to measure the room response which gets more complicated or try to balance them out by ear. That's why those little dip switches on studio monitors are often more straightforward when you don't have too many options to try.

With Fractal maybe you can get sounds out of the box that are more to your liking but issues with output systems are still very real on that as well.

The global eq on the Helix didn't really help much with the speaker issues, I ended up having to re balance the presets on the amp sliders and eq blocks. To be fair, I've managed to get a decent tone now using the modded 2204 Marshall amp which on the alto speakers always sounded horrible and fizzy but through the yamahas it's starting to sound more like a real tone, with some subtle low and high cuts etc.

I don't know how you fractal guys went about deciding on your speakers, it seems very vague on the Helix forum. I would have thought by now there would be go to recommendations for each type of scenario for the Helix but not really and it changes the sound dramatically speaker to speaker.

Do we know if there is a most popular speaker solution for using the fractal at home or in small rehearsal rooms or is everyone using all different stuff here too?

 

[peteri]

Hi

As we talked on the phone, I started which the Yamaha DXR10 which worked great.

I now have a stereo pair of the Red Sound 8 inch speakers which I suspect aren’t so FRFR, but which sound absolutely amazing

 

[laxu]

The global eq on the Helix didn't really help much with the speaker issues, I ended up having to re balance the presets on the amp sliders and eq blocks. To be fair, I've managed to get a decent tone now using the modded 2204 Marshall amp which on the alto speakers always sounded horrible and fizzy but through the yamahas it's starting to sound more like a real tone, with some subtle low and high cuts etc.

I don't know how you fractal guys went about deciding on your speakers, it seems very vague on the Helix forum. I would have thought by now there would be go to recommendations for each type of scenario for the Helix but not really and it changes the sound dramatically speaker to speaker.

Do we know if there is a most popular speaker solution for using the fractal at home or in small rehearsal rooms or is everyone using all different stuff here too?

Check the amps and cabs section on this forum. It's something that people debate all the time and everyone has different results with different output systems.