Metallica's latest rig rundown has an interesting nugget!

I spoke to the Metallica guys about this. Apparently, they found that knob position to matter substantially, and each of them arrived at this conclusion independently. I guess I will update my recommendations about this in the future!
 
Well now I'm curious about how that knob changes the tone over its entire sweep.

Is it just a simple volume thing or does [ Matrix at 2:00, Axe-Fx at 9:00 ] really sound better than [Matrix at 9:00, Axe-Fx at 2:00 ] or whatever volume equivalent.
 
At 1 o'clock or higher, the Matrix comes alive, bass sounds better. It's not Fletcher-Munson.
The level knob on the Matrix is not really controlling output level, it attenuates the input signal.
 
Funny, I run my matrix GT 1000fx the same way… Meaning I'll put knobs around 1 o'clock or 2 o'clock. The output on the Axefx is set somewhere around 11 o'clock. I can't say why I did this-I just came about naturally.
 
yek said:
The level knob on the Matrix is not really controlling output level, it attenuates the input signal.
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It attenuates the input signal...thereby controlling the output level.
 
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I recently started doing the same w my GT1000 and found the same results. It just seemed to make everything come alive in regards to the tone.
 
It's strange, until I saw this video I thought I was the only one who noticed that with my GT1000. I have my level set around 2 o'clock. It just seems to sound "livelier" for lack of a better term. It's nice to know I'm not imagining things. It sounds great dimed too, but it is so ungodly loud with just a slight bump of the Axe's output knob I prefer to keep it a little lower.
 
Interesting....

Boy, one step forward, one back so to speak lol... When I got into the Axe and SS amplification, I thought the days of needing to crank up by tube rigs to find a "sweet spot" where over with. Great tone at any volume, right ?

Now we are back to having to crank the power amp til 1-2 o'clock because it sounds better than running it quieter.... deja vu for me because I used to spend so long trying to convince band mates, club owners and sound engineers that I needed to my tube rigs at a certain output level to make them sound good....

Post is ironic, but also kind of tounge-in-check, so obviously I'm not 100% literal here and no, its not really like running a full tube rig.... but it's slightly closer than before I watched the video
 
It comes down to this: at gigs, you need gig volume, no matter how good your tone is at lower volume. And if you have to turn your Axe way up to get that volume, the next piece of downstream gear will limit or clip at its input.
 
Just tried this myself and was pretty happy with the results. It definitely added low end but still tight, also cleaned up a little fizz on the high end. Made the cab move some awesome air.
 
Huh.... well damn. I just tried this briefly for about 15 minutes. Using the Axe, GT1000FX, and two 212 cabs. I usually keep the Matrix volumes about 10-11 oclock and the Axe output about 11 oclock. I switched it so both Matrix volumes were about 2-3 oclock, and the Axe output at like... 8 oclock. Mostly playing a modern high gain chunky sound using the 5153 or similar.

I definitely noticed the low end came alive. One of my biggest complaints about the Axe is the low end just dont thump and chug like an actual tube amp like a Recto, but this definitely helped a lot. It is almost like one of those loudness buttons you see on radios. The low end jumps out more, and the whole thing seems more present in your face. I went back and forth a few times, and the old settings just seemed kind of thinner, and squakier in the mids. So weird! I will have to give it some more time at a higher volume, but my initial impression was wow! I didn't think it would make much of a difference, but it does! Whenever the next firmware comes out, I might just have to wipe it and start over!

I assume maybe the level controls on the Matrix is also filtering in some way while reducing the level. Maybe it part of a subtle high pass filter or something.
 
I tried it on my GT800FX for a few minutes earlier, and I definitely felt like the upper frequencies were a bit more crisp and snappy with the Matrix level knobs around 3 o'clock and reducing Axe Fx output level to compensate.

I will definitely play more with this.
 
This strongly emphasizes the importance of using Mic+DI method if you're using a Matrix amp for cab captures. Subtracting a "reference IR" afterwards would not work unless you used the same volume knob setting for the reference and all of the captures.
 
I used to run my gt1000fx full out. All this did was to greatly reduce the granularity of the axe control on volume. I would just have to breathe on the axe output knob to get a large volume change. So much so that I no longer had the ability to turn up " just a little bit".

By attenuating the matrix you spread the available volume over the full range of the axe output volume control, thus giving you the ability to make finer volume control changes. Thus just swapping matrix at 12 and axe at 12 to matrix at 2 axe at 10 will generally not give equivalent volumes and thus your ears will hear it differently (even though you think you hear it as the same volume).

Now if someone does this using a spl meter and comes up with different tone quality evaluating different settings at say a consistent 85db spl level (or whatever benchmark level you like) then there might be something to this.

I now run my matrix at Noon for most situations.
I don't really hear a difference between this and 1-2 o'clock other then Fletcher-Munson effects.
 
mrekrek said:
I used to run my gt1000fx full out. All this did was to greatly reduce the granularity of the axe control on volume. I would just have to breathe on the axe output knob to get a large volume change. So much so that I no longer had the ability to turn up " just a little bit".

By attenuating the matrix you spread the available volume over the full range of the axe output volume control, thus giving you the ability to make finer volume control changes. Thus just swapping matrix at 12 and axe at 12 to matrix at 2 axe at 10 will generally not give equivalent volumes and thus your ears will hear it differently (even though you think you hear it as the same volume).

Now if someone does this using a spl meter and comes up with different tone quality evaluating different settings at say a consistent 85db spl level (or whatever benchmark level you like) then there might be something to this.

I now run my matrix at Noon for most situations.
I don't really hear a difference between this and 1-2 o'clock other then Fletcher-Munson effects.
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The difference I heard was definitely not Fletcher-Munson because I tried both at the same volume. I just heard thicker low end and less sizzle in the highs at the same volume.
 
Hi guys, thanks for checking out the video.
Maybe I can clarify. I don't feel the Matrix attenuation affects the "tone" per se. I would think of it more like efficiency. It seems to me that the Matrix doesn't achieve it's potential until the level knob passes 1:00 [13:00 for you overseas chaps : ) ]. All other factors aside, like club sizes or how mad your old lady gets when you turn it up that loud, the interaction between the amp and our live cabinets reaches an ideal state where they FEEL great and SOUND great around 1-2. The more linear changes due to the Solid State output help to widen that "sweet spot" that you would get with a tube amp. Tube amps tend to change the tone way more with level changes as you know. The AxeFx is not changing it's amp interaction settings so that removes that variable as you also know.

It's undeniable to me that my stage cabinets sound best when used this way. I run my AUX output to the Matrix at a strong level, over 0 on the VU meters. We run into situations in TV studios or record store gigs or rehearsals where these levels are impractical. It's nice to know that when I turn it down, it doesn't just disappear. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I understand Fletcher-Munson but the speakers themselves don't 'come alive' until the Matrix attenuator reaches a threshold. I can't tell you why, electrically speaking.

Our situation with the new indoor in-the-round stage is that we have no 4X12's on stage. Guitar sustain is achieved by our monitor guy piping sounds into the Meyer 2X12 wedges which are what we used to dial these rigs in on day one. It doesn't react the same or sound the same. The PA levels in the arena also help. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do. The amp/cab sound remains the same through output 1 to MONS/FOH/RECORD.

Z
 
I think there is some confusion in this thread.
Some people seem to be talking about Matrix tone in terms of TOTAL VOLUME and some people are talking about it in terms of VOLUME KNOB POSITION, WHILE TOTAL OUTPUT VOLUME STAYS THE SAME. The point of the thread is about the latter scenario. It's not about whether the Matrix sounds better flat out louder.

It's about comparing the following two scenarios:

1. Matrix volume set low + all other equipment set such that total output volume = X
2. Matrix volume set to 1-2 o'clock + all other equipment readjusted such that total output volume also = X

...and some people finding that scenario #2 sounds better, even though it's just as "loud" as the rig in setup #1.
 
GreatGreen said:
I think there is some confusion in this thread.
Some people seem to be talking about Matrix tone in terms of TOTAL VOLUME and some people are talking about it in terms of VOLUME KNOB POSITION, WHILE TOTAL OUTPUT VOLUME STAYS THE SAME. The point of the thread is about the latter scenario. It's not about whether the Matrix sounds better flat out louder.

It's about comparing the following two scenarios:

1. Matrix volume set low + all other equipment set such that total output volume = X
2. Matrix volume set to 1-2 o'clock + all other equipment readjusted such that total output volume also = X

...and some people finding that scenario #2 sounds better, even though it's just as "loud" as the rig in setup #1.
Click to expand...
Right, that was my point originally, does the tone improve with the matrix set to 1-2 and the Axe Fx lowered to keep volume the same. In my experiment, yes it does.
 
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