Marshall Jubilee - Take 2

Fro

Fro

Experienced
OK, so I’m starting a new thread because technically I changed gears just a little bit. The original thread was:

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/32347-Marshall-Jubilee-A-Long-Work-In-Progress


I’m trying to match my Axe Fx Standard to my Marshall Jubilee, which I currently run with the 4 cable method. The general consensus was that I was close, but should focus on my cab sims instead of relying on the Parametric EQ. I got some wonderful tips and learned quite a bit.

Lesson One: Take great notes. Although I had my cab mix labeled as something I got from Scott Peterson, I didn’t have the actual recipe written down. Scott, I think the suggestion you gave in the last thread will help, but it was nothing like what I was using. Which leads me to believe that if I did originally get it from you, it was something you mention in passing on some obscure thread I found somewhere and not something you regularly use. That, or I changed the crap out of it and didn’t make notes.

Lesson Two: When you finally do decide to painstakingly compare the Axe to the real thing, don’t do it by running the real amp through a Red Box. Although that little thing has had its time and place for me, the biggest downfall with this kind of tweaking is that we don’t really know exactly what the Red Box is simulating. Sure, a 4x12 with a mic of some sort, but when you can get as detailed as you can with the Redwirez, you need more information than that.

So, I scrapped the direct signal for now and back tracked. I wanted to make sure that what I was hearing coming out of the actual guitar cabinet on stage was exactly the same as the Jubilee. Since I wanted to check it with headphones and other various speakers, I decided to mic it the old-fashioned way and record it.

What you have here is me playing that same riff, which my wife is having nightmares about, 2 more times. (It was actually 52 more times until I finished tweaking it) Again, the first is the real Marshall Jubilee, and the second is the Axe Fx. Guitar is still my 70’s Tele custom using bridge and neck pickup together. This time it’s my real Jubilee 2x12, the one that looks like a 4x10. It’s a real SM57 that is 2” Cap Edge. That’s it for both takes, the same real cab and same real mic.

Some of the changes I made since the last thread: I brought the Hi Cut up from 3000 to 4300. I brought the Mid back down to 5, brought the bass up to 10, brought the Presence up a smidge to 2.5, I think. I moved the frequency of the PEQ from 122 down to 100 and brought it up 2 more db. The icing on the cake, thanks to Clark Kent, was bringing the Sag down just a bit, from 2.01 to 1.77. It did tighten it up.

Now you have it, the real thing. If I listen to this tomorrow and think that they still sound the same, I will move on to the direct signal and attempt the cab sims again. What I can’t decide is if I should now try to match the cab sim with this recording, or go back to matching the Red Box. Either way, my wife thinks I’m nuts.

Thanks again for the help. If you do look at the patch, ignore the cab sim and PEQ that lead to Output 1. That’s not finished yet. The fun bit is output 2. That’s what I was running to may SLA1 and Marshal cab.

http://soundcloud.com/fromas/axe-fx-jubile-test-2
 

Attachments

  • Jube_Take_2.syx
    2 KB · Views: 261
sounds absolutely spot on to me!

i think your wife may deserve some flowers after all this....! :)
 
man this is indeed a great, classic amp... would love it if they added it as a stock amp. Nice job!
 
i used to own the short head version with the 2x12 cab that looked like a small 4x12 with the sloping front. i bought it new when they came out. great little amp....one of the stupidest things i've ever done was selling it.
 
I honestly didn't read the post until after I finished listening to the sound clip.

I didn't hear a difference.

Great job!
 
forgive my ignorance, but if the 1987X MOD amp isn't the Jubilee (which came out in 1987), then what is it?
 
The tone is spot on, no question. The difference now is in the details. The Axe-FX clip sounds a smidgen brighter (actually in a good way) and sounds fuller. IMHO, the Axe-FX sounds better as presented here... but that's a subjective opinion.

I will offer this - the cab IR is AT LEAST as important as the amp block when you run direct, in terms of your actual resultant tone and feel. IMHO, you've got the amp block part nailed and now should work on the cab IR.

I'll offer another (I know, I know...) recipe that works well for this sort of tones for me. Very similar to what I offered in the last thread, but as a fellow compulsive/obsessed tone junkie... I can't stop working through the options trying everything.

Greenback Ref Mix9***
Marshall1960A-G12Ms-SM57-CapEdgeOffAxis-5in.wav,0.85
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-CapEdge-0in.wav,0.05
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-Back-12in.wav,0.05
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-RoomL.wav,0.025
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-RoomR.wav,0.025


The key to playing with these recipes from me (much like finding the balance between the 'drive' and the 'master' in the amp block) is the distance and position between the SM57 (and note the distance here in Ref Mix9 is 5"!!) to offset or work with proximity effect; and the position of the reference mic. If this needs more body, leave the 57 alone and change the position of the TC30 to 'cone'. Or 'cone edge'. Leave the other factors alone. This one works for me, but tweaking with MixIR on the Red Wire site is pretty simple, just label and keep notes about what you are doing so you can figure out what you did. (Trust me on that one!).

I think the devil is in the details; and I think the results are worth the effort to get there. The Axe-FX has never been the 'instant gratification' box; and with all the possible IR mixes one could do... it can get too deep a rabbit hole. But please, let's all keep talking and not shut down on the IR's - they are FAR too important to the end result. You'll find with these IR mixes that, much like the OwnHammer IR's, you do not need to do any low cut/high cut in the amp block to 'correct' for anything; instead you can use those parameters to fine tune the results. I've not used a PEQ after the cab now for 2 months... what I am discussing here is why. There's no need to, because the battle we fight with the stock cabs and most of the 2" and closer Red Wire IR's is proximity effect. Just moving the close mic away negates that.

Please try it! You are oh so close to not only 'getting' your Marshall, but you can now work on getting it better than your Marshall.

Enjoy the journey!
 
Fantastic! Being a JCM800 addict; always loved the Jubillee series. The tones are almost indisguishable; to my ears and as Scott noted Axe-Fx seems to have slight girth over
the real cab. Thanks for sharing!
 
I think we have another Power Tweaker on the Board.

So now help others and share your best tweaks in our community!

Cheers and may the Axe be with you
 
Simeon, this is my understanding on this. And a good question BTW. Finding the differences between any Marshall amp is a good question. There are so many. Now, I am the farthest thing from an expert, and everything I know is from misinformation I’ve found the web. The 1987X is from the Plexi family. The Jubilee is closer to the JCM800 family. I'm actually trying to recall which came first, the Jubilee or the 800? About the same time, I think. The biggest difference between the Jubilee and most other Marshalls is something called Clipping Diodes. I have no clue what that is. It's apparently the spark of hideous debates on other forums. The gain stage in the amp is from the tubes, but the clipping is solid state. It may actually be why I like the amp. Some people suggest that because of this, a good way to simulate the Jubilee amp is a drive block before the amp block. I may start a thread on that at some point. Until then, this worked.

That brings up a good point in all of this, and goes back to what Scott has said in his threads. Use you ears. Honestly, that’s all I did when picking the amp block. Without really knowing what they all were models of, I just picked the one that sounded closest to start with.

Scott, your mixes ar helping out a lot. In fact, I’m at the point now where I can move on from matching the sound exactly to finding something I like better. Your tips are helping with that. I’m also trying some of the Marshall 1960B cabs. I verified what’s in the Jubilee cab, and they are G12T-75s. So the 1960B is sounding pretty close to that. For the first time I’m actually having fun with this, and not getting frustrated. It only took 10 months. Oh yeah, and no more PEQ after the cab block.
 
Fro - if you are having fun, then you are doing it right. And I mean that sincerely!

Keep rocking, keep posting and keep on! Enjoy the journey!!
 
Fro said:
Simeon, this is my understanding on this. And a good question BTW. Finding the differences between any Marshall amp is a good question. There are so many. Now, I am the farthest thing from an expert, and everything I know is from misinformation I’ve found the web. The 1987X is from the Plexi family. The Jubilee is closer to the JCM800 family. I'm actually trying to recall which came first, the Jubilee or the 800? About the same time, I think. The biggest difference between the Jubilee and most other Marshalls is something called Clipping Diodes. I have no clue what that is. It's apparently the spark of hideous debates on other forums. The gain stage in the amp is from the tubes, but the clipping is solid state. It may actually be why I like the amp. Some people suggest that because of this, a good way to simulate the Jubilee amp is a drive block before the amp block. I may start a thread on that at some point. Until then, this worked.

That brings up a good point in all of this, and goes back to what Scott has said in his threads. Use you ears. Honestly, that’s all I did when picking the amp block. Without really knowing what they all were models of, I just picked the one that sounded closest to start with.

Scott, your mixes ar helping out a lot. In fact, I’m at the point now where I can move on from matching the sound exactly to finding something I like better. Your tips are helping with that. I’m also trying some of the Marshall 1960B cabs. I verified what’s in the Jubilee cab, and they are G12T-75s. So the 1960B is sounding pretty close to that. For the first time I’m actually having fun with this, and not getting frustrated. It only took 10 months. Oh yeah, and no more PEQ after the cab block.
Click to expand...

Then that would be a JCM 900. You might would try the BRIT 900 model and get even closer. Though I must say, your current effort is pretty dannnnng close. haha Here is an excerpt about the BRIT 900 model from the wiki.

The successor to the 800 series was the 900 series. This amp had basically the same power amp but a new preamp with more tone shaping, more gain, and a solid-state clipping circuit that gave it a raspier sound. This amp was designed to get more of its distortion from the preamp than the earlier models but you can still keep the drive low and turn up the Master for more power amp distortion
Click to expand...

Good luck, and keep us updated. :D
 
The clip sounds great and very similar. I don't have the Redwire stuff or any experience with a Jubilee but I love your amp settings. I am using it with the V30 cab and some other IR's that I have. It sounds great. Your patch is really good.
 
Thanks bigness for the JCM 900 info. I’ll be honest, I never even considered it because my limited experience with the 900 in the real world wasn’t good. In all fairness, I never liked the lead channel on the Jubilee either until recently, I always just cranked the heck out of the clean channel. But I’ve learned a lot about amps from the Axe Fx. I’m going to have to give the 900 a try again. It makes sense on paper at least.

This is a clip of what I got with applying Scott’s mix to the 1960B with the T75s. Again, I did this because the Jubilee cabinet also has the G12T-75. 3 inches seemed to sound the best to me for this particular cab. I’m going to keep this in my user slot 1 and move on to the 1960A. I happen to also have a real 1960AX, so I’ll do some similar comparisons. The Jubilee cab is lighter, so that's what I take to gigs. First I’ll make my way over to the patch section and post everything I’m currently using for my live set up. Until then, let me know what you think. The Axe is deeper, maybe that’s good? It’s a whole world better than what the H&K Red Box was giving me. The real cab has more definition, but I like the power of the sim.

So here is the mix:

Marshall1960B-T75s-SM57-CapEdge-3in.wav,0.85
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-CapEdge-0in.wav,0.05
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-Back-12in.wav,0.05
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-RoomL.wav,0.025
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-RoomR.wav,0.025

The clip again has the real Amp first, with real cab and real mic. The second half is 100% Axe, straight to the recorder.

http://soundcloud.com/fromas/axe-fx-marsha-jubilee-1960b-57-mix
 

Attachments

  • Jubilee With Sim.syx
    2 KB · Views: 73
Very cool. Did you try a version of the IR mix using "Cone" instead of "CapEdge" for the TC30? That'd add a little girth to it.

The newer version comparison is very close again. The Axe-FX version has a rounder tone to me, and gets a little blurry... IMHO, it's more the Cab IR than the amp at this point.

Note you can embed Soundcloud players here on this forum; there is a Soundcloud code icon that uses the [ soundcloud ] url here [ /soundcloud ] (no spaces though)...

Check it - here's your second comparision:

 
Just like I said in the first version, if you want to compare amp and axe fx, you have to use the same real cab or same cab sim on both to actually compare the AMPS!! By doing so, you get so close that on a blind test, none could ever figure wich one is the real thing!! Well done!
 
To my ears in my speakers the axe-fx sounds less bright and the bass seems to "resonate" less

edit - at higher volumes the differences seems less noticeable to me
 
On my inexpensive laptop music headphones, it sounds pretty much dead bang. I definitely would not have been able to pick one over the other in a blind test. Very nice work.
 
First I realized that I hadn’t tried the cap yet. And then it hit me, and I don’t know why I hadn’t thought of this before. I’m sure some of you have. Here I am meticulously listening to the difference in sound by moving the mic back and forth by just one inch. But what if the 57 that I actually put on my cabinet wasn’t exactly at the cap edge? And I only want to move my sim mic over a little toward the middle, not dead center cap or exactly on the edge? Well, do both and vary the percentage. I was always using a different mic on each, because I figure a certain mic sounded better on the cap edge than it did on the cap or cone. So I used the exact same mic, straight one the cabinet, one at the cap edge and the other at the cap. I’m basically getting the effect of the mic being a half inch or so closer to the middle, but still on the cap edge. This is what I used:

Marshall1960B-T75s-SM57-CapEdge-3in.wav,0.55
Marshall1960B-T75s-SM57-Cap-2in.wav,0.30
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-Back-12in.wav,0.05
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-RoomL.wav,0.025
BasketweaveG12M25s-TC30-RoomR.wav,0.025

And this is what I get. Again, the first half is 100% real, and the second is 100% Axe Fx. I’m happy enough with what I have now, I think, to move on. With as dark as I set my patches, this seems to work better.

 
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