Bug? Magic 8 ball in 8.01

[timowens316]

...the 8 ball seems to pretty much stop, even when the dot isn't centered and the both arrows aren't there. I've gone back to trying to tune by ear for the last little bit.

I tried to duplicate this with a couple of different guitars and couldn't. I tried open strings, harmonics and different pickups, when the 8 ball stops the dot is centered and both arrows appear. I did notice that on the high E string the signal level will drop very quickly and when it gets low the tuner does get a bit goofy which is to be expected if there's not enough signal. Perhaps if you tell us exactly what guitar and pickups you're using someone else might have the same combination and be able to test it. Or maybe you could make a quick video demonstrating the problem.

 

[Joe Jaeger]

Like tim0 said, i've always found it best if people either don't believe me or if i'm not able to describe what is going on in enough detail, just make a video, then NO one can refute anything and everyone is up to speed instant. So if you can make a video or anyone else with the issue make a detailed video, this could all be resolved quickly.

 

[greiswig]

Like tim0 said, i've always found it best if people either don't believe me or if i'm not able to describe what is going on in enough detail, just make a video, then NO one can refute anything and everyone is up to speed instant. So if you can make a video or anyone else with the issue make a detailed video, this could all be resolved quickly.

It sounds like a couple of us could video the spinner movement not matching the arrows. I think I can, although what I see is not reproducible consistently. My original comment was that it seemed less precise, and i speculated as to why that might be, but I was probably just noticing the arrows not matching the spinner.

But I'm afraid to even try posting a vid at this point. I had proposed that earlier to Cliff in a PM to see if he was interested, but haven't heard from him. So the way things stand, I would guess that "the majority" would rather I just leave this alone. I don't know how to take his last comment here.

 

[xarkon]

Post a video, patch, and description of the guitar used; having details about what is happening would help move this forward.

Also see Inharmonicity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cagey]

I haven't said anything about the 8 ball in this or any other thread, but I do want to add my vote for keeping it. Personally, I think it's great. Works fine for me. I work on a lot of guitars, and it's quite handy for setting intonation.

I wonder if some of the problem might be with strings some folks use. I also wonder if some pay too much attention to it. Some guitars really fight being tuned... old Strats and Jaguar/Jazzmasters come to mind... old guitars in general, really. Also, the 8 ball is really sensitive. Even if you get a guitar in perfect tune, it's not going to stay that way long. At least, not according to that tuner. According to the ear, it'll be fine.

Perhaps a soft switch somewhere in the Utility Menu to turn that feature of the tuner on/off might be a better solution than just eliminating it due to a noisy minority. As close as I can tell, the vast majority would like that feature to continue being available.

 

[Rex]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that's the issue here. The OP isn't asking that the 8-ball be removed. The issue is that in some cases, the 8-ball and the old-fashioned straight line don't agree with each other. Turning off the 8-ball—via soft switch or otherwise—doesn't address the problem. In fact, I've found that when the two don't agree, the 8-ball is more trustworthy than the straight line. Turning off the 8-ball would just remove the more reliable tuning method.

 

[FractalAudio]

The 8-ball and the straight line use different algorithms. The straight line is a pitch detector, the 8-ball is a demodulator. If your strings are old or your guitar suffers from inharmonics, then you may get different results between the two.

The straight line previously derived it's information from the demodulator but there were too many snarky comments about instability so I changed it back to a separate pitch detector.

FWIW, the OP was complaining that the "slope" of the 8-ball had changed (whatever that means). It has not, nothing related to the 8-ball itself has changed.

 

[chris]

It's great to have both! Thanks for using those 2 algorithms and for the explanation.

Again, it's the other gear not matching the quality of the Axe

 

[Sebastian]

It's great to have both! Thanks for using those 2 algorithms and for the explanation.

Again, it's the other gear not matching the quality of the Axe

yeah, what he said!
I know the quality is there, and the explanation makes it perfect(ly understandable).

 

[greiswig]

The 8-ball and the straight line use different algorithms. The straight line is a pitch detector, the 8-ball is a demodulator. If your strings are old or your guitar suffers from inharmonics, then you may get different results between the two.

The straight line previously derived it's information from the demodulator but there were too many snarky comments about instability so I changed it back to a separate pitch detector.

FWIW, the OP was complaining that the "slope" of the 8-ball had changed (whatever that means). It has not, nothing related to the 8-ball itself has changed.

Gee, I wish you'd said that sooner. Might have saved us all some grief! I was speculating, as I wrote this:

Not sure whether this is a bug or just a wish. To me, the 8 ball was more accurate in 7 firmware than it has been in 8. It took me a little time to convince myself of that, because it doesn't make sense: Cliff was removing it altogether, and only reluctantly put it back in, so why would he have changed any code on it at all?

But at least on my box, it no longer seems to have the same curve, where the speed of movement of the 8 ball matches the accuracy of the pitch. Once the pitch is in the ballpark, the 8 ball seems to pretty much stop, even when the dot isn't centered and the both arrows aren't there. I've gone back to trying to tune by ear for the last little bit.

What you just said makes me want to change my strings and try again. Thanks! Also, I think what you described as the difference in the way the two algorithms work might describe the behavior I described here, but which I think other people interpreted better...that the spinner stopping doesn't coincide all the time with the cursor being centered between the arrows.

Information. Enriching lives!

 

[Rex]

The 8-ball and the straight line use different algorithms. The straight line is a pitch detector, the 8-ball is a demodulator. If your strings are old or your guitar suffers from inharmonics, then you may get different results between the two.

Thanks, Cliff. That helps me understand why the two can give different results. I had figured the tuner determined the pitch and then distributed that information to both the straight line and the 8-ball. Got some homework to do on how a demodulator figures out pitch (I didn't even know there was a carrier signal involved ). My strings are indeed due for a change.

Which of the two displays/methods would you trust more in a pinch?

FWIW, the OP was complaining that the "slope" of the 8-ball had changed (whatever that means). It has not, nothing related to the 8-ball itself has changed.

Actually, he talked about the "curve," meaning the speed of the 8-ball relative to how far off pitch the signal was. Then he ended the OP with this clarification, which is the same thing i observed:

Once the pitch is in the ballpark, the 8 ball seems to pretty much stop, even when the dot isn't centered and the both arrows aren't there.

 

[Space Firebird]

I'm a little late to the discussion, but I was impressed to see the the poll in the other thread.

I think it was a good idea not just for the ball,
but for for dealing with minority whiners in general.

Having a few "squeaky wheels" snark a useful feature into oblivion
seems like the opposite of what should be happening.

It would seem that if 9/10 people are in favor of a feature,
and the feature works as advertised it should remain incoporated.

Polling users might be a useful tool to include in the process when making future similar decisions.

 

[kisslorand]

The 8-ball and the straight line use different algorithms. The straight line is a pitch detector, the 8-ball is a demodulator. If your strings are old or your guitar suffers from inharmonics, then you may get different results between the two.

...and there we have a "time to change strings" detector

 

[greiswig]

Having a few "squeaky wheels" snark a useful feature into oblivion
seems like the opposite of what should be happening.
.

I don't know if you bothered to read the entire thread, but as far as I can tell there are very few people who considered the posts made by me and the few others who have seen this issue whiny or snarky. I admit, though, that it is getting increasingly hard not to be snarky in a defensive way.

Maybe those of you apparently in the minority on their opinion (that any reports of potential bugs made in a bug report forum are whiny and snarky) should keep your opinion quiet. You jeopardize a useful feature for the rest of us: that of being able to use a bug report forum for its intended purpose.

 

[greiswig]

...and there we have a "time to change strings" detector

Heh! Like it. I'm going to try to do some experiments when I get a chance, taking video of the problem with old strings and then changing them. Intonation on the guitar is currently good, but the strings are admittedly pretty old. I hope you're right about the detector.

 

[Phostenix]

I don't know if you bothered to read the entire thread, but as far as I can tell there are very few people who considered the posts made by me and the few others who have seen this issue whiny or snarky. I admit, though, that it is getting increasingly hard not to be snarky in a defensive way.

Maybe those of you apparently in the minority on their opinion (that any reports of potential bugs made in a bug report forum are whiny and snarky) should keep your opinion quiet. You jeopardize a useful feature for the rest of us: that of being able to use a bug report forum for its intended purpose.

In Greiswig's defense (and at the risk of having Cliff show up at my house with a bat), if Cliff had just posted his explanation response to the OP, I'm guessing all of this drama could probably have been avoided.

 

[Cagey]

In Greiswig's defense (and at the risk of having Cliff show up at my house with a bat), if Cliff had just posted his explanation response to the OP, I'm guessing all of this drama could probably have been avoided.

Hehe! Yeah. Because you know he's just sitting around eating bonbons and watching "Days of Our Lives" <grin>

 

[Space Firebird]

I don't know if you bothered to read the entire thread, but as far as I can tell there are very few people who considered the posts made by me and the few others who have seen this issue whiny or snarky. I admit, though, that it is getting increasingly hard not to be snarky in a defensive way.

Maybe those of you apparently in the minority on their opinion (that any reports of potential bugs made in a bug report forum are whiny and snarky) should keep your opinion quiet. You jeopardize a useful feature for the rest of us: that of being able to use a bug report forum for its intended purpose.

I wasn't referring to you, but that was a pretty snarky reply, thanks!

 

[greiswig]

I wasn't referring to you, but that was a pretty snarky reply, thanks!

Apologies if this was the case. But I challenge you to find any of the people in this thread who had this same experience who posted it in a snarky or whiny way. By not addressing a specific quote, I hope you'll understand why I (we) might have felt lumped in to your categorization.

This thread got out of hand, IMHO. I suggest everybody stop criticizing one another from this point forward, and focus on the issue if necessary. For those of us who had the problem with the tuner, it is now on us to focus on Cliff's suggestion that string age and instrument intonation might make the difference.

 

[willowdale]

The tuner is still ever so slightly jittery on the high e string, but it has improved.

There are much better tuners out there though!!