Low Output Pickups

Rexgtr said:
I think the hottest pickup I have is a SD hotrails, one of the originals. It's good with distortion but is bad for cleans.
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Personally I quite like a hot bridge pickup, as it gives me a good sound for dirt. And for cleans I always prefer to switch to a neck pickup, or neck/middle combo, as I've never liked the sound of a bridge pickup for cleans anyway, even when using low output pickups.
 
gigawatt said:
Oh so I have a stalker now , I see your game :loveletter:
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Don't flatter yourself pumkin.

As far as the subject of low output pickups, I agree that they do a fantastic job when used with high gain tones. High output pickups definitely have their place and sound great, especially for more 'aggressive' styles of music. I'm not sure why we should be surprised though. It's not like there are drastic differences in the components or manufacturing process. Some players have even been able to use single coils and get decent high gain tones.

I had a set of Dimarzio Evolutions and while I was pleased with their tone using higher gain, it was difficult getting a decent clean tone with them. I realize that's not really their intended use but it is still a reality that causes some to shy away from them; lack of versatility.
 
Sonofiam said:
Don't flatter yourself pumkin.

As far as the subject of low output pickups, I agree that they do a fantastic job when used with high gain tones. High output pickups definitely have their place and sound great, especially for more 'aggressive' styles of music. I'm not sure why we should be surprised though. It's not like there are drastic differences in the components or manufacturing process. Some players have even been able to use single coils and get decent high gain tones.

I had a set of Dimarzio Evolutions and while I was pleased with their tone using higher gain, it was difficult getting a decent clean tone with them. I realize that's not really their intended use but it is still a reality that causes some to shy away from them; lack of versatility.
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Ok pookie ;). You spelled pumpkin wrong, or that that your sweet little way of spelling it?

When you mention single coils and high gain I think immediately of Yngwie J. Malmsteen and all his Marshalls.

I've always wanted to try Evo's but was never lucky enough to get a guitar with them already installed. Would you say this write up from Dimarzio is pretty accurate?

The Evolution® bridge pickup works best for soloing where the sound must cut through. Low notes are very tight, and the highs have a lot of presence, enabling the pickup to be heard in almost any situation. Obviously, the Evolution® was designed for Steve's Ibanez® Jems, but it can add a lot of punch and definition to Gibson® Les Pauls® and similar set-neck guitars - even the lowest bass notes really jump out of the amp, and feedback occurs easily with a wide range of harmonic overtones.

Treble: 6.5
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Mid: 7.0
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Bass: 6.0
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Wiring: 4 Conductor
Magnet: Ceramic
Output mV: 404
DC Resistance: 13.84 Kohm
Year of Introduction: 1993

The Evolution® Neck and Bridge humbuckers are the result of two years of research to come up with the right sound for a very demanding player: Steve Vai and his Ibanez® Jems. Both pickups are designed for maximum impact and power. The neck pickup is fat, punchy and loud. The bridge pickup is tight, aggressive and louder. Both pickups have our patented dual-resonance configuration to reproduce more harmonic overtones than conventional humbuckers. Evolution® pickups are not polite-sounding, and they’re not for the inexperienced, but – if you’ve got the chops and a hot amp – your sound will burn. The Evolution® pickups were originally designed with live gigs in mind, but they have so much presence and definition that they’re great recording pickups, too; they slice right through even the densest mix.

Kinda sounds like the Evo's have a similar tone as the EMG 81 only punchier. I've always found the 81's lead tone to be really in your face.

To the OP, sorry, the only experience I've had with lower output pickups was in Les Pauls, and as opposed to the Classic 57's I liked a Dimarzio Super Distortion in there better. Had Super D's in my Strats too. \m/ \m/
 
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I had the Evolutions in an Ibanez and a mahogany PRS so I can't speak to how they'd translate in a Les Paul. Dimarzio's description is pretty much what I experienced with the exception of the neck pickup being "fat". It's actually a really good neck pickup, just wouldn't have thought "fat" as a word to describe it. It is bold and has really good clarity.

I've personally come to prefer the tone of Dimarzio humbuckers, they seem to have a bit more 'character' or musicality than other similar aftermarket makers.
 
I've never been a fan of the descriptions that pickup manufacturers write. They use various adjectives to describe how good the lows, mids and highs are ("soaring," "singing," "punchy," "full"... what's the difference between a soaring high and a singing high?), and they're careful to make sure that their words will appeal to the largest possible audience.

The above description for the Evolution appeals to the guitarist's ego ("...they're not for the inexperienced"). And it contains some meaningless statements ("even the lowest bass notes really jump out of the amp," which describes pretty much every pickup in the world, depending on how you dial in your amp).

Long story short, manufacturer's pickup descriptions read like they were all written by the same guy. Take them with a grain of salt.
 
I hear that high output pickups have more compression but I dont understand how they could from a physics standpoint and cant find any evidence at all that they actually do compress more.
The extra compression you notice when playing high output pickups comes from the extra volume making the preamp compress more. Unless someone can lead me to some evidence to the contrary?
The big difference between high and low output pickups is the frequency curve and the output volume. With modeling gear it is easy to replicate the volume difference. The frequency response of a low output pickup can be shifted to match that of a high output pickup by running a capacitor to ground in your guitar. Or using a really long guitar cable. If you have low output pickups in your guitar you could add a switch to change in and out different capacitors to emulate different pickups.
 
lwknives said:
I hear that high output pickups have more compression but I dont understand how they could from a physics standpoint and cant find any evidence at all that they actually do compress more.
The extra compression you notice when playing high output pickups comes from the extra volume making the preamp compress more. Unless someone can lead me to some evidence to the contrary?
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My thoughts exactly:
Rex said:
3) Distortion and compression come from your amp, not from your pickup. Even a crazy-high-output pickup can play squeaky-clean if you you keep your downstream gain low enough.
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lwknives said:
The big difference between high and low output pickups is the frequency curve and the output volume. With modeling gear it is easy to replicate the volume difference. The frequency response of a low output pickup can be shifted to match that of a high output pickup by running a capacitor to ground in your guitar. Or using a really long guitar cable. If you have low output pickups in your guitar you could add a switch to change in and out different capacitors to emulate different pickups.
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That could work, with varying degrees of accuracy. For instance, it can be hard to replicate the exact shape of the treble peak of your favorite pickup, but you might be able to get close. Note that, on the Axe-Fx, you can simulate a long, capacitive cable in the Input 1 block.
 
High output pickups were made out of necessity. We didn't have high gain amps back in the day so we needed hotter pickups to push the amps harder. Now that we can achieve ridiculous amounts of gain from within the amp, a lower output pickup (IMO) works best for achieving a sweeter tone.
 
lwknives said:
If you have low output pickups in your guitar you could add a switch to change in and out different capacitors to emulate different pickups.
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I don't think it matters whether they are low, med, or high output in this case. It's also my understanding that what all capacitors do is roll off highs, that's what BC Rich's Varitone 6 way switch did. They also added a tiny little inductor to roll off the lows in the last position. IMO, they rolled off to much treble, so I made the same switch with lower value caps that was still evident, but more subtle. I read somewhere that a guitar tech, instead of the usual .022 uF cap (that bleed off way too much treble imo), he uses an Orange Drop .01 cap in all the guitars he repairs and his customers love it. Several years ago I did the same thing and loved it too.

I am not sure how to make peaking filters for guitar but I'm sure you could find plenty of info just by saying "go Google" at a certain phone.

Rex said:
That could work, with varying degrees of accuracy. For instance, it can be hard to replicate the exact shape of the treble peak of your favorite pickup, but you might be able to get close. Note that, on the Axe-Fx, you can simulate a long, capacitive cable in the Input 1 block.
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If you know the pickups exact frequency curve that you're trying to duplicate, you can use a parametric EQ or two at the beginning of the chain (before the amp and pedals) to make your pickup sound similar to the one your trying to mimic. That'd be easier than finding the right caps, resistors, and inductors.

brianv4 said:
Now that we can achieve ridiculous amounts of gain from within the amp, a lower output pickup (IMO) works best for achieving a sweeter tone.
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IDK IMO I've never achieved a sweeter lead tone than with an SD JB, an MP-1, and the right guitar. I was playing an RR5 through an MP-1 in the Axe's "FX loop" with the Axe's Tube Pre (and amp) into studio monitors and was for the first time in years in tone heaven. :D (I just got the RR5 with the JB about a week ago).

FYI, I haven't had the pleasure of trying many Dimarzio pups except the Blaze 7, Super Dist., Super 3 (very sweet), the 59 neck, and the Fred. SD pups; JB, Custom TB5, Parallel Axis, Full Shred, Screamin Demon, Jazz, 59, Invader (when I was like, 17), and a few others. The EMG's were in my repertoire (81 bridge and split-able 89 neck) for a good many of years as I was in a Metallica tribute band. The 81's lead tone cuts like a dagger in the mix but doesn't have quite as much character as the passives. The 89 split to single coil, (same as an SA) sounds outstanding for clean tones in the neck position, and not bad for lead tones in either split or humbucker positions. Carvin shouldn't be overlooked, I've heard a lot of rave reviews about their C22 series, medium output.

Check this guy out, he's an old buddy of mine from when I was a Carvin fanboy for a while. The V3 is a very underrated amp, with loads of kids saying it's too fizzy over at Harmony Cxntral, giving it a bad rap. I'd still have one but it just wouldn't be any fun in an apartment. Anyway, enough of my yippin and yappin, on to the vid, check it out, great tone and a great player.



He's also in a Kiss tribute band and hates "as he calls it, pickup on steroids" the Dimarzio SD like Ace used. :( He got me into lower output pickups.
 
Muad'zin said:
Personally I quite like a hot bridge pickup, as it gives me a good sound for dirt. And for cleans I always prefer to switch to a neck pickup, or neck/middle combo, as I've never liked the sound of a bridge pickup for cleans anyway, even when using low output pickups.
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The SD Hot rails I have might be a bridge pickup? I installed it in 1990 after hearing
Up from the Ashes (Don Dokken album)
I have it in the neck position (its really ugly for cleans), a cool rails in the middle (dark and way too weak output) and L500 in the bridge. I've pretty much done the opposite for cleans, choosing to use the Bridge/middle pickup. Also like that John Petrucci trick where you use coil split of the neck and bridge humbuckers in parallel. To me that sounds close to a telecaster clean tone.
 
gigawatt said:
I don't think it matters whether they are low, med, or high output in this case. It's also my understanding that what all capacitors do is roll off highs, that's what BC Rich's Varitone 6 way switch did. They also added a tiny little inductor to roll off the lows in the last position. IMO, they rolled off to much treble, so I made the same switch with lower value caps that was still evident, but more subtle. I read somewhere that a guitar tech, instead of the usual .022 uF cap (that bleed off way too much treble imo), he uses an Orange Drop .01 cap in all the guitars he repairs and his customers love it. Several years ago I did the same thing and loved it too.

I am not sure how to make peaking filters for guitar but I'm sure you could find plenty of info just by saying "go Google" at a certain phone.



If you know the pickups exact frequency curve that you're trying to duplicate, you can use a parametric EQ or two at the beginning of the chain (before the amp and pedals) to make your pickup sound similar to the one your trying to mimic. That'd be easier than finding the right caps, resistors, and inductors.



IDK IMO I've never achieved a sweeter lead tone than with an SD JB, an MP-1, and the right guitar. I was playing an RR5 through an MP-1 in the Axe's "FX loop" with the Axe's Tube Pre (and amp) into studio monitors and was for the first time in years in tone heaven. :D (I just got the RR5 with the JB about a week ago).

FYI, I haven't had the pleasure of trying many Dimarzio pups except the Blaze 7, Super Dist., Super 3 (very sweet), the 59 neck, and the Fred. SD pups; JB, Custom TB5, Parallel Axis, Full Shred, Screamin Demon, Jazz, 59, Invader (when I was like, 17), and a few others. The EMG's were in my repertoire (81 bridge and split-able 89 neck) for a good many of years as I was in a Metallica tribute band. The 81's lead tone cuts like a dagger in the mix but doesn't have quite as much character as the passives. The 89 split to single coil, (same as an SA) sounds outstanding for clean tones in the neck position, and not bad for lead tones in either split or humbucker positions. Carvin shouldn't be overlooked, I've heard a lot of rave reviews about their C22 series, medium output.

Check this guy out, he's an old buddy of mine from when I was a Carvin fanboy for a while. The V3 is a very underrated amp, with loads of kids saying it's too fizzy over at Harmony Cxntral, giving it a bad rap. I'd still have one but it just wouldn't be any fun in an apartment. Anyway, enough of my yippin and yappin, on to the vid, check it out, great tone and a great player.



He's also in a Kiss tribute band and hates "as he calls it, pickup on steroids" the Dimarzio SD like Ace used. :( He got me into lower output pickups.
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Actually, if you don’t have a resistor (tone pot) in series with the capacitor it doesn’t roll off highs, it shifts the resonant frequency down to a lower frequency.
So if you have a pickup with a resonant peak at 10Khz adding a .001 cap will move the peak to a lower value maybe 8Khz. Using a standard .022 tone cap will cut the resonant frequency almost in half depending on the pickup.
Changing the cap value actually acts exactly like a peaking filter!
The reason to start with a low output pup is because you can only shift the frequency down not up!
 
Ahhh I wasn't thinking of the tone pot in the equation. So, if a cap shifts the frequency down, then wouldn't an inductor shift the frequency up?
 
gigawatt said:
Ahhh I wasn't thinking of the tone pot in the equation. So, if a cap shifts the frequency down, then wouldn't an inductor shift the frequency up?
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An inductor does a mid cut not a bass cut. There isn’t a lot of info on how they work though so I can’t help much there.
You do a bass cut by adding a cap in series with the pickup. It acts just like a normal high pass though and doesn’t effect the resonant frequency.
 
lwknives said:
An inductor does a mid cut not a bass cut. There isn’t a lot of info on how they work though so I can’t help much there.
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An inductor just adds an inductive impedance. Your pickup is an inductor. Whether it does a mid cut, a low cut or anything else depends on the circuitry it’s connected to, and how it’s connected.
 
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