Last 2 Tap Tempo

[mbrown3]

Yes I've noticed that as well; eventually it does synchronize.

I guess the benefit with the averaging is that you get a more accurate value, however the benefit with the last 2 taps is very quickly you can "find the tempo" and get it synched and make corrections very quickly too.

So if you tap 10 times in both methods, the "last 2 method" will get you where you want to be faster...however even though you tapped 10 times you're only as accurate as those last 2 taps. I certainly see the benefits of both...

I just prefer the last 2

The differences are 1. the first couple of taps for most people aren't super accurate...it takes a few to get "in sync" with the drummer; and 2. you need at least 10 taps...and, in fact, with the "average of 10" method, the most accurate results would come from more than 10. With last two you can theoretically just tap twice, but again you'd run into the fact that initial taps are often the most inaccurate. Still, tapping four or five times to get accurate results from last 2 would be better than tapping 10 or more for the average method.

 

[mbrown3]

The problem is your drummer, not your Axe-Fx. If he wanders enough for you to notice it, he's also micro-wandering enough to gradually drift out of sync. You could tap all day and never be in sync.

This isn't accurate though. Most drummers aren't THAT bad. Just small variances of tempo. What makes me think this can't be blamed on the drummer is because it actually works much better with other delay devices. I compared three other delays a few minutes ago...TC G-System, TC Flashback X4, and an DD5, and all three were easier/quicker to lock in to the correct tempo than the Axe. It's not that the Axe can't get there...it's just more finnicky and takes more time to do so.

The theory is that using "last 2" instead of "average of 10" would work better because that's what those other devices use, and it works better. Frankly, I don't even know about the reasons for it or what's happening behind the scenes...I just know that all three of the others locked into accurate tempo faster than the Axe did.

 

[barhrecords]

This isn't accurate though. Most drummers aren't THAT bad. Just small variances of tempo. What makes me think this can't be blamed on the drummer is because it actually works much better with other delay devices. I compared three other delays a few minutes ago...TC G-System, TC Flashback X4, and an DD5, and all three were easier/quicker to lock in to the correct tempo than the Axe. It's not that the Axe can't get there...it's just more finnicky and takes more time to do so.

The theory is that using "last 2" instead of "average of 10" would work better because that's what those other devices use, and it works better. Frankly, I don't even know about the reasons for it or what's happening behind the scenes...I just know that all three of the others locked into accurate tempo faster than the Axe did.

I'm still not sure about how the Fractal computes the tempo and don't really care

But totally agree its not as easy in live performance as the TC stuff.

Rex, do you use tap tempo in live shows? If so, ever noticed its not nearly as "forgiving" as other devices? With my TC stuff, I never even had to think about it. It worked with no attention from day one.

 

[Rex]

This isn't accurate though. Most drummers aren't THAT bad. Just small variances of tempo.

Agreed. With most drummers, you just tap in the tempo at the start of the song, and you're good.

it actually works much better with other delay devices. I compared three other delays a few minutes ago...TC G-System, TC Flashback X4, and an DD5, and all three were easier/quicker to lock in to the correct tempo than the Axe. It's not that the Axe can't get there...it's just more finnicky and takes more time to do so.

I can't argue with experience. I've never tapped on those systems, so I don't know from personal experience.

 

[Rex]

Rex, do you use tap tempo in live shows? If so, ever noticed its not nearly as "forgiving" as other devices?

I only have experience with tap tempo on a few pieces of equipment, so I don't have an informed opinion. I do know that, with a steady drummer, I do four or five taps on my foot pedal and I'm good to go. There's one drummer I play with who wanders a lot. With him, I have to re-tap several times during a song.

 

[FractalAudio]

The Axe-Fx originally only used the last two taps but lots of people asked for it to average so we changed it.

 

[lqdsnddist]

The Axe-Fx originally only used the last two taps but lots of people asked for it to average so we changed it.

As the saying goes....."you can please some of the people, some of the time"....

Guess it might be a cool option to have either a last 2 or an average switch for tap tempo.

I'm lucky I guess in that I just let my drum machine, NI Maschine, drive the midi clock, and that seems to keep synced pretty well, or at least close enough for rock n roll

 

[Lumikut]

Thanks Cliff for taking the time to check this out, i do remember people talking about the last 2 taps being there before.

Having the option to change it would be cool

 

[onj]

I play with axe live and the tap tempo is one thing that annoys me a lot! please change it back to last 2 taps or give us an option to choose between the two.

 

[mbrown3]

The Axe-Fx originally only used the last two taps but lots of people asked for it to average so we changed it.

Having this as an option would be the nuts.

 

[Rotti]

I made the thread initially linked to, and I'm still in favor of "last 2."
I've got other MIDI stuff I'm switching tempo with, and if they're all reading last 2, but the Fractal is averaging previous taps, they'll always be off unless my previous taps are perfect, which they never are.

 

[mbrown3]

I made the thread initially linked to, and I'm still in favor of "last 2."
I've got other MIDI stuff I'm switching tempo with, and if they're all reading last 2, but the Fractal is averaging previous taps, they'll always be off unless my previous taps are perfect, which they never are.

Agree. AFAIC, this is my #1 request/wishlist item. There are all kinds of fancy things that would be cool to have, but to me this is a basic core function that seems out of line with the level of the rest of the device. And it seems like it would be a pretty easy thing to implement (note the "seems like" because I have no idea...could be much harder than I think).

 

[greiswig]

I'm a professional in usability and user research. One of the first things I learned is that what users say they want is often not what they actually need. You have to poke below the surface of what they're saying to figure out what is really needed. I almost wonder if the "last two" as initially put out there was misinterpreted by some people as "only two?" That would certainly lead to averaging requests.

If implemented the way I think it was, you can tap as many times as you feel like, and it would just use the last two taps, which should work well. Averaging over ten requires too much input, and also ends up using those first few taps as part of the average, which are always dodgy until you get your beer balance back.

I'd love to get more precise control over this: getting timed effects coordinated with the song tempo is one of the key strengths.

 

[onj]

Just played a set today and again the tap tempo was just not friendly at all, I know people say not to mind the LED but I can`t help and it throws me off. Please fractal make it work like 99% of other tap tempo.

 

[Lumikut]

I almost wonder if the "last two" as initially put out there was misinterpreted by some people as "only two?" That would certainly lead to averaging requests.

If implemented the way I think it was, you can tap as many times as you feel like, and it would just use the last two taps, which should work well.

Exactly. You can tap as many times as you want but only the last two are taken. In my experience, every other effect that utilizes tap tempo works this way.

I feel better knowing I'm not the only one that's been wondering about this.

 

[Bodde]

Just played a set today and again the tap tempo was just not friendly at all, I know people say not to mind the LED but I can`t help and it throws me off. Please fractal make it work like 99% of other tap tempo.

Noticed this too very early on. I don't care too much about the led but it would be nice if the led was actually in sync with the song tempo. There seems be some latency or delay in the led or something. These tap tempo issues topic come up very often here. Have to agree that the tap tempo on the Axe somehow doesn't work as good as on other pedals. Don't know why that is.

 

[Cagey]

I've found that timing devices need practice. The more I work with them, the more accurate they get.

Personally, I have trouble with the "tap tempo" switches on devices that have them, but that's my fault. I had a traumatic brain injury some time back that keeps me from accurately controlling my leg muscles. So, I use a metronome or watch das blinkenlites, as my ears and eyes still work pretty well. The ticks/lights are electronically timed/controlled, so I know they're better than me. If they move off time, I cuss at them because I'm the man, but I know it's not them. It's me. Or, at least I assume that a crystal-controlled oscillator is better than my sloppy ass.

"'Tis a poor workman who blames his tools"

 

[mbrown3]

"'Tis a poor workman who blames his tools"

I would agree with this IF I also had problems with other tap-time devices. I don't. All three of the other delays I have work about as perfectly as I could expect...to the point that I've never even noticed them ever having an issue with "locking in" to the correct tempo. That's about the best compliment I can give them, because I SHOULDN'T notice them. They should just work; and they do. With the Axe, I have to re-tap several times a song, not because our (band's) tempo is changing but because it just doesn't lock in accurately very easily.

I don't care about the LEDs or really notice them much but best case scenario would be to give users a choice of "average" or "last two", and have LEDs sync perfectly with the actual taps rather than just the bpm in a general sense. LEDs might already sync accurately to taps, but as the taps themselves aren't accurate to the song's tempo, the LEDs aren't either. I don't know. For me it just boils down to this: three other tap-devices I have work perfectly. Axe's tap function is very difficult to get time-based effects in sync with the song.

 

[Cagey]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the model of MFC you have? I know on the first version, the switches had a mechanical breakover point, sorta like a gun trigger. Trying to hit that with the same pressure each time could prove challenging and change your timing. It only takes a few milliseconds difference from beat to beat for it to add up over time to a miss in time. Assuming, of course, that your timing is perfect.

 

[Lumikut]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the model of MFC you have?

It's the III. But it doesn't matter because of it's the front panel, MFC switch, or in my case I use a boss FS-5u just cause I figure it's easier to replace that then the MFC or a switch in it. The result is the same with all 3.

Like mbrown said I have never noticed it on any other device. Noticing tempo issues is a huge distraction when playing live.

Now, don't get me wrong...the Axe does exactly what it is intended to do with the averaging and does it very well. But for me (and others it looks like), it has its drawbacks such has taking longer to "lock in" a particular tempo. Both have their pros and cons so ultimately it comes down to preference.