Lacking umphhh in power?

tas9195

tas9195

Inspired
It seems like my sound lacks punch even with presets from others that I heard a clip from where it sounded 10 times better. The overall sound isn't bad it just sometimes sounds like it is being choked and can't get its full potential out, especially when chugging on power chords or the open E, not much sustain either. I am running through a mesa 50/50 into a BBE 482i and out to a randall 412 with Jaguar speakers. I am wondering if it is that I can't get the tubes hot enough in the 50/50 or if it is the speakers just not able to put out enough, they are mediocre speakers and have been around about 10 years or so. Any ideas where I might look to solve this.
 
dump the bbe, those things are tone destroyers.

the 50/50 doesn't have as much oopmh as the larger 90 watt power amps 2:90 or 2/90/2, and those sound smaller than the big boys, 2150, hammer 320 etc. it is the iron.

have you dialed in your low end resonance to match your cabinet? that can help too.

power amp sims on or off? i dont use them with my tube power amps. doubling up on the poweramp filtering does not sound natural at all.

not familiar with that speaker either.
 
From my experience with the Randall cab with Jaguar speakers... not to sound rude but entry level at best. I'd be looking for a better quality 4x12 with better regarded speaker. Along with removing the BBE from the equation, I'm sure you'll find heaps of improvement for low end resonance.
 
Let's see...sound seems weak, not much sustain...

Either you're playing at low volume, or you still have your cab sims on. Or both. :)
 
Rexx said:
Try removing the BBE out of your setup. Also try turning up the Axe out levels 1 or 2 and reduce the 50/50 level to compensate.
You could also increase your guitars input sensitivity in the I/O menu.
Click to expand...
I have heard that about the BBE before but I had it in my old rig with the prophesy II and it sounded better so I left it in but sounds like I will take it out now. I am still new at setting paramaters which ones to set and how to set them so I might have to just mess around. I will double check but I am pretty sure I turned off the power amp sims after reading yeks page on this. maybe it was the cab sims I am not sure. will have to check tomorrow.don't know about dialing in low end resonance to match cabinet. I am planning on dumping the 50/50 for the matrix 1000 before long just wanted to get this one sounding ok for now. I also have wanted to dump the Randall for a long time just can't seem to get the money together to get a good cab. I do woodworking so I am considering building a cab based on ENGL spec and buying some celestion V30s to throw in there. I definitely have never liked this cab but I got it for a good deal when I needed to upgrade to a cab for shows. Wish I would have known better back then. Thanks for the help and information. MOLTEN If you can expand on the part about dialing in the low end resonance with the cab I would appreciate.
 
Cliff's recommendation for setting LF Resonance

Furthermore there are certain aspects that simply can't be modeled and require user intervention. For example, a speaker has a low-frequency resonance. A tube amp will create a higher output at that resonant frequency. The Axe-Fx has no way of knowing what that resonant frequency is and defaults to a value that is common for the speakers that are typically used with that amp. However, if you drive that speaker through a solid-state amp you won't excite the resonance unless you adjust the LF Resonant Frequency to match it.

This is the one of the few advanced parameters I ever adjust and I tweak it until I hear the bottom end "sympathize". For example, my favorite Mesa cab resonates around 110 Hz but most of the models default to 95 Hz so I usually adjust the LF Resonance to 110 Hz when using that cab. After I do that the Axe-Fx is indistinguishable from the real thing, IMHO.


The SRF parameter makes a difference in certain circumstances: medium-gain with lots of power amp breakup and high-gain into a traditional guitar cab.

For example, a Deluxe Reverb easily gets into power amp breakup with a Drive of 5.0. Play a G chord and listen to the low notes breaking up. Adjust the SRF and you'll hear the character change pretty dramatically. This applies to both FRFR and traditional speaker applications.
For high-gain amps into a traditional cab the SRF has a definite effect for palm-mutes and diad chugging. As you excite the resonant frequency the speaker excursion increases and you get much more punch. This even applies a bit to low and medium gain amps if you rely on that punch as part of your tone. Note, however, that the punch is rarely audible to the audience or captured during recording.

One way to find the SRF is to put a Filter block after the amp block. Set the type to Peaking, Q to 5 or so and Gain to 10 dB. Start with a Freq. of 50 Hz. Play some chugga-chugga and slowly adjust the Freq. until you hear and feel the cabinet resonate. Make a note of the frequency. Remove the filter block and set the amp block SRF to match. 4x12s typically have an SRF of between 80 and 120. Open back cabs are typically a bit lower.
 
Try a preset from scratch with just a Marshall Plexi amp block and nothing else.

Strip down the rest of the rig to just guitar with hard cable into the front of the AxeFx -> Mesa power amp -> guitar cab.

That should give you a good thick low mid heavy hard rock tone.
 
Thanks Molten, I will try that I am just about to take out the BBE now and check it out. Barhrecords, thanks I will try that. Sometimes less is more. I am not much of a dry kind of player but not too great at tweaking yet. If it is too dry for me that way what can I do to make it a little wetter.
 
tas9195 said:
Thanks Molten, I will try that I am just about to take out the BBE now and check it out. Barhrecords, thanks I will try that. Sometimes less is more. I am not much of a dry kind of player but not too great at tweaking yet. If it is too dry for me that way what can I do to make it a little wetter.
Click to expand...

My suggestion was mainly for proof of concept. I.e. that your guitar, mesa amp and cab can sound right. For that testing, I would just use an AMP block and nothing else.

My simple reverb recipe is place REV block in series:

Bypass mode MUTE IN
Mix 25%
Tail Delay 150ms
Early Level fully counter clockwise -40db IIRC.

From there try different types to see what you prefer.

To get more complicated goto the EQ page of the REV block and add a bump around 6K with a wide Q.
 
+1 on ditching the bbe. Use 8khz in graphic eq in ampblock instead if you need more sizzle...or simply precense contol in the amp.
 
Moltenmetalburn said:
Cliff's recommendation for setting LF Resonance

Furthermore there are certain aspects that simply can't be modeled and require user intervention. For example, a speaker has a low-frequency resonance. A tube amp will create a higher output at that resonant frequency. The Axe-Fx has no way of knowing what that resonant frequency is and defaults to a value that is common for the speakers that are typically used with that amp. However, if you drive that speaker through a solid-state amp you won't excite the resonance unless you adjust the LF Resonant Frequency to match it.

This is the one of the few advanced parameters I ever adjust and I tweak it until I hear the bottom end "sympathize". For example, my favorite Mesa cab resonates around 110 Hz but most of the models default to 95 Hz so I usually adjust the LF Resonance to 110 Hz when using that cab. After I do that the Axe-Fx is indistinguishable from the real thing, IMHO.

The SRF parameter makes a difference in certain circumstances: medium-gain with lots of power amp breakup and high-gain into a traditional guitar cab.

For example, a Deluxe Reverb easily gets into power amp breakup with a Drive of 5.0. Play a G chord and listen to the low notes breaking up. Adjust the SRF and you'll hear the character change pretty dramatically. This applies to both FRFR and traditional speaker applications.
For high-gain amps into a traditional cab the SRF has a definite effect for palm-mutes and diad chugging. As you excite the resonant frequency the speaker excursion increases and you get much more punch. This even applies a bit to low and medium gain amps if you rely on that punch as part of your tone. Note, however, that the punch is rarely audible to the audience or captured during recording.

One way to find the SRF is to put a Filter block after the amp block. Set the type to Peaking, Q to 5 or so and Gain to 10 dB. Start with a Freq. of 50 Hz. Play some chugga-chugga and slowly adjust the Freq. until you hear and feel the cabinet resonate. Make a note of the frequency. Remove the filter block and set the amp block SRF to match. 4x12s typically have an SRF of between 80 and 120. Open back cabs are typically a bit lower.
Click to expand...

Very intriguing. I have not tried any of this but now plan to. Thanks for commenting.
 
Took the BBE out today and tried saw a difference. Not fully to what I want to hear but it is a start. Sharka I am using FW11. Thanks Bahr and Blackmon I will try those suggestions.
 
leaning toward a killswitch sound, thick and meaty but still have clarity when playing single note riffing. I have gotten a decent sound either way but not combined like I here out of those guys.
the intro of these 2 songs
Killswitch Engage - The End of Heartache (Music Video) - YouTube
Cant seem to get notes ringing and sounding clearly like this
Killswitch Engage - Fixation On The Darkness With Howard(HQ) - YouTube
and the heavy tones just sound dull and like they are being choked when I play this.
I have played these songs on other gear and didn't have this issue so I know it isn't my playing, thankfully.

I am into all kinds of music though. Blues and Especially 80's metal, that is the era I grew up in so I think trying to figure this out will help me all around. I even tried to get Lawrences Lynch sound dialed in and it just didn't sound like his sample on his youtube channel LPD tone clones.
 
I use a 2:50 currently and I had to mod it to get the response I wanted. The cathode bypass cap on the input stage is a fairly high value by default, giving an undesirable high pass response for an FR application like the axe (as it's voiced for mesa pres). You can either pull the cap for reduced overall gain, but a flatter response. Or swap the cap for a higher value to move the high pass frequency down a bit. I've been quite satisfied with mine since changing it.

I should add, don't mess with tube amps if you don't know what you are doing. Most modern amps have bleed resistors for the caps, but you can seriously hurt yourself with the voltages present.
 
If you are using a tube power amp and regular guitar cab you should do the following:
1. In the Global menu turn Power Amp Modeling to Off
2. In the Global menu turn Cabinet Modeling to Off
3. In the Amp block(s) set Presence to 5.0.
 
Glad to see someone has had this experience. don't know if I want to go that far on the 50/50. I actually plan on getting a matrix gt1000fx when I can afford it to better suit the axe fx. I will make sure my settings are as you stated admin. Hopefully all this will tide me over until I can get the 1000
 
I used to run a Mesa 50/50 and with my mark IV patches it sounded great, with everything else..............................................not so much
the Fryette 2/50/2 I use now is much much better. the 50/50 really colors the sound a lot.
I also had a Matrix GT1000fx for a while,
Like the Fryette much better.
I don't know anything about that Randall cab but th ecab is going to make a huge difference.
I run mine with an Avatar Vintage 2X12, but I've also run it with a marshall 1936 2X12, an Orange PC212 closed back,
a mesa 2X12 recto and an Avatar Contemporary 2X12 and the rig sounded completely different
with each cab.
 
kmanick said:
I used to run a Mesa 50/50 and with my mark IV patches it sounded great, with everything else..............................................not so much
the Fryette 2/50/2 I use now is much much better. the 50/50 really colors the sound a lot.
I also had a Matrix GT1000fx for a while,
Like the Fryette much better.
I don't know anything about that Randall cab but th ecab is going to make a huge difference.
I run mine with an Avatar Vintage 2X12, but I've also run it with a marshall 1936 2X12, an Orange PC212 closed back,
a mesa 2X12 recto and an Avatar Contemporary 2X12 and the rig sounded completely different
with each cab.
Click to expand...

What would you say is the big difference in the matrix and the fryette that made it better in your opinion.
 
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