Jay Mitchell and the power of flat response

quite a bit more reliable), I will be looking into a coaxial design. Any recommendations on which models (Coda, L-Acoustics, RCF, or...?) will come closest to Jay's will help. I would rather spend more the first time and get a better sound than sifting through the mid priced to get a good but not great sound. Again, my quest for the truest representation of what the Axe can do was inspired by Scotts' reaction to what Jay's system could do.
 
Scott Peterson said:
Some folks are just hung up on the best; and nothing short of the 'best' will be acceptable. My point is that no matter how 'best' you can get, there are too many variables to account for every situation and your 'best' will always be compromised anyway. The moral? Relax and make music with what you got. This isn't rocket science, it's amplified guitars.
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If I'm happy with the sounds coming out of my equipment, I'm happy. In one sense, "faithful reproduction" is a silly notion when we're talking about equipment that is intended to alter tone, such as guitar amplifiers. There is a case to be made that if you're running FOH, building your tone around accurate monitors will give you a good result at FOH. It probably will, but it probably won't be the same as what you heard in your incredibly flat monitors.

In the real world, if the sound the audience hears is reasonably close to what I intend, it's going to have to be good enough. More important to them is whether I'm annoyed by my sound and that's taking away from my playing or whether I'm happy with what I hear and feeling inspired. That factor will have a much greater impact on the audience experience than nuances of tone will.
 
tzrider said:
If I'm happy with the sounds coming out of my equipment, I'm happy.
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Indeed.
In one sense, "when we're talking about equipment that is intended to alter tone, such as guitar amplifiers.
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Agreed, faithful reproduction is silly in the case of guitar amps amplifying what signal comes out of a guitar jack. Even then careful selection is done to choose and manipulate the exact way the tone is altered. With stage monitoring amplifying the Axe-Fx, faithful reproduction is entirely not a silly notion. The Axe-Fx is supposed to take care of the tone altering tone part. The amplification is intended to not alter that Axe-FX-manipulated tone, or as little as possible budget permitting. When the amplification does alter the tone, that is a deterioration and, as was stated many a time in this thread: discernible to you and the public. Just stating "it's just one other alteration on top of what's been altered already" may be acceptable to some (rightfully so), but not to everyone (also rightfully so).
There is a case to be made that if you're running FOH, building your tone around accurate monitors will give you a good result at FOH. It probably will, but it probably won't be the same as what you heard in your incredibly flat monitors.
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Agreed, Anything you do to make the source of higher quality will make the likelihood of the end-result being of higher quality greater. After that it is out of your hands.
In the real world, if the sound the audience hears is reasonably close to what I intend, it's going to have to be good enough. More important to them is whether I'm annoyed by my sound and that's taking away from my playing or whether I'm happy with what I hear and feeling inspired. That factor will have a much greater impact on the audience experience than nuances of tone will.
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Agreed again. It is exactly why high quality monitoring is being discussed here. Smaller chance that what YOU hear is going to annoy you and result in you not being inspired. Thank you for agreeing.
Although the tone in your post seems to disagree... I'm confused that we seem to agree on everything, yet I have this lingering notion w do not...

Many times I've been struggling with my tone (using real amps) and not enjoying my time on stage. Axe-FX and as good monitoring I can get are helping me to enjoying myself more and not be at the mercy of whatever.
 
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brain21 - my post(s) was not directed at you nor anyone directly. It was an indirect observation. If it was directed at you, I'd either name you directly or quote you directly.
 
Rex said:
For some folks, that's exactly the conclusion. But you have to be willing to live with the one tone that cab is able to produce. And note that you can also get great-sounding FRFR solutions for reasonable money that you don't need to haul around. Even with the great-performing stuff (Jay's speaker, for instance), I don't see how cartage is a problem.
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Reasonable money is a variable. It does not mean the same thing to all people. Not even close. There are far too many folks that feel that spending $800 on a FRFR rig is unreasonable and are trying Behringer's, low-end JBL, Traynor, those awful Roland keyboard amps, etc.

Personally, I'd be willing to spend considerably more than $800 if I had a high degree of confidence in the rig. But quite frankly, I don't. Not based on Internet chatter and reviews anyhow. And there are very few places to try out any high end FRFR solutions and fewer still that have more than one or two high end pieces. This is the frustration. And I already tried the only FRFR designed to be paired with the Axe-FX and ended up sending it back.

As for cartage, that was a reference to Scott's post. But to your point, I saw on one site that Jay's speaker is 85 lbs which is more than a Twin Reverb and most 4x12 cabinets. There are plenty of folks that would struggle with that on their own - I have a few buddies with bad backs that couldn't even consider such a rig.

Rex said:
That's what everyone wants. I know I want it. :D That's why people eat up online reviews of products, and endlessly discuss and disect the published opinions of others. We all want someone to tell us what we should get. In truth, there are so many kinds of products (FRFR speakers, MIDI pedals, cell phones, toaster ovens...) that there's no way one individual can learn enough to make the best choices in all categories. You have to choose what areas are important enough to you to warrant deeper investigation. And at some point, you have to stop reading reviews and opinions. After a while, they actually cloud your decision.
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MIDI pedals, cell phones, and toasters don't have anywhere near the level of "subjective opinion" problem that a FRFR speaker has. You can buy a MIDI pedal based on specs - manuals are online which contain everything you should need to make a decision. You can narrow a range of cell phones down based on specs and then walk into a store and try them - they are readily accessible. And toaster ovens, they only cost 30-50 bucks and are easy to return to Target. FRFR speakers are a different beast. You can't buy on specs - Jay has pointed out many times just how flawed that information can be. Buying based on online reviews is tough, I've owned a number of the things that people rave about and thought they were awful. It's tough to find someone whose opinion you can trust - you certainly have no reason to believe me when I say the 12ma is quite good despite the fact that many folks like them ther are plenty of people that disliked theirs.
 
hippietim said:
As for cartage, that was a reference to Scott's post. But to your point, I saw on one site that Jay's speaker is 85 lbs
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"Jay's speaker?" My company manufactures a line of speakers. I have no idea what "site" you're referencing, but that weight is not the weight the monitor I use. It weighs ~40 lbs. My line arrays weigh ~28 lbs. each (they are passive). I carry my own gear, and I choose all my gear with that in mind.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
"Jay's speaker?" My company manufactures a line of speakers. I have no idea what "site" you're referencing, but that weight is not the weight the monitor I use. It weighs ~40 lbs. My line arrays weigh ~28 lbs. each (they are passive). I carry my own gear, and I choose all my gear with that in mind.
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Gotcha. I was just going on this: :::SBPROLINE:::
 
Jay Mitchell said:
That's my Korean distributor. The figure they quote is the correct weight in pounds, not kg. Someone there must have confused units, as my data includes both English and metric dimensions and weights.
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40lbs? That's awesome. It's even lighter than the 12Ma.
 
hippietim said:
40lbs? That's awesome. It's even lighter than the 12Ma.
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I've seen and heard Jay's rig in a club context. I think there's an 8" LF driver in the cab, which may be one of the reasons for the lower weight number. Even an 8" LF transducer can do great things when incorporated into a good design.
 
scotts said:
Assuming 1 and/or 2 don't come to fruition I will...
~do a lot of homework on as many things like this:
Product | TFM-420 | Turbosound
as I can find
~pick my favorite
~ask Jay Mitchell what it would cost for him to test it for me
~drop ship the product to him during the trial period
~keep it if it meets his standards and go about my business
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Maybe a few of us can go in on this. Did you find out what kind of beer/wine/booze that Jay likes?
 
tubetonez said:
A big reason to do so with the AxeFX is using a mono Hi-Res cab, you'd lose the stereo function with the FX pre-cab.
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Please forgive me, but I'm still a newbie with this wonderful device. Why would I lose the stereo function of pre-cab effects with mono Hi-Res cabs?
 
hippietim said:
Because if it takes an unreasonable amount of money and folks to haul it around then you would be way better off with a power amp and a guitar cab because you can get great sounding power amps and cabs for reasonable money that don't totally suck to haul around.
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Well, I don't think I'd be better off because even a "great sounding power amp and guitar cab" would be coloring the output of the Axe-FX in ways I wouldn't want (if I could avoid it, which I believe I can with FRFR). The Axe-FX is providing all the color that a guitar amp and cab is supposed to provide. It makes no sense to me to further color it and get further from the intended sound. Besides, what constitutes "unreasonable amount of money" may be different for me than for you. If your threshold for "reasonable" when it comes to the first half of this instrument (the Axe-FX) is $2000, then the logical threshold for the other half is also $2000. I get the impression that we can get a very effective FRFR monitor solution for the same money we paid for the Ultra in the first place.

hippietim said:
A lot of us have been reasonably satisfied with <insert FRFR here>, but I don't know of many folks absolutely jumpin' for Jesus over their rig. I really like my Axe-FX and 12ma but if I'm being completely honest, my Bogner Fish + Boogie 2:90 + Boogie 2x12 sounds at least as good and actually feels better - it is so much more "alive" (for lack of a better term to describe that physical connection you get).
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Based on what I've read in these forums for the past month, something is definitely missing in your Axe setup if it isn't "alive" enough for you. I mean, it is possible that you carry a psychological bias that no FRFR solution, no matter how close it meets an engineering ideal, could ever overcome. But assuming that's not the case, creating a rig that you (or anyone) would "jump for Jesus" over is simply a matter of acquiring more expertise with the Axe-FX and applying a number of critical principles properly. Judging from the revelations expressed here by even the most experienced users, there is still a lot of misunderstanding--or just plain lack of deep understanding--governing the way everyone builds their Axe rigs.

hippietim said:
It's great to have such excellent tools like the Axe-FX but when it is so difficult to use it to it's fullest potential it can be disappointing and down right frustrating.
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Well, yes, and now we get the heart of the matter IMO. The problem isn't that the Axe-FX isn't capable of "jumpin' for Jesus" calibre rigs, or that it can't nail that "alive" amp in the room feel, but that the amount of knowledge and effort it takes to get there surpasses most guitarists' personal thresholds for patience and interest. It becomes easier to just give up and hook up to a "tried and true" guitar amp and cab, even if that means adding color where it doesn't belong. We convince ourselves that it still sounds great and that the compromise is worth it. So be it. But let's be clear about where the ball is being dropped here. It's not in the Axe-FX or the FRFR paradigm, but in one's commitment to realizing/maximizing its potential.
 
I've been reading a lot of what's been said in here. And, honestly, I'm happy with the feel of my Atomic FR cabs. My only gripe would be that as I move my head, the sound changes... and the solution to that is that I need more of them. A wall of sound will complete the "jump for Jesus" feel. Someday I'll buy 8 more Atomic FR cabs. Hopefully they design a 4x12 model so it'd be easier to move them all around.
 
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