Jay Mitchell and the power of flat response

[zslane]

Jay is a pussycat compared to the online tyrant I would be if I were in his shoes. You should all feel fortunate that he's the expert in loudspeaker design around here and not me. :twisted

 

[tubetonez]

As a newbie to the Axe-FX, this is something I don't quite understand. I've seen many layouts where effects blocks are placed after the cab, something not done with a physical rig. I suppose this is somewhat analogous to inserting effects at the mixing board in a recording studio, where the effects are altering the post-cab/mic signal, but I'm not accustomed to thinking of those effects as part of the guitar rig. I'm trying to grasp why we would want to endorse a virtual practice that has no real-world equivalent other than "because we can". This seems like either an indication that we are having to resort to funky practices in our Axe-FX layouts to compensate for weaknesses in the simulations, or that we are taking creative advantage of the "its all just a signal" nature of the Axe-FX's digital data pipeline.

Could someone explain this to me in a somewhat technical manner? A way that goes beyond, "we do it because it sounds good"?

It is done, most often in recording environments where the guitar/amp/cab is recorded dry and FX added later. Eric Johnson uses a pair of powered monitors for "post-cab" FX.

There's not a huge tonal difference in running time based FX post-cab vs. in an FX loop of a traditional rig. A big reason to do so with the AxeFX is using a mono Hi-Res cab, you'd lose the stereo function with the FX pre-cab.

Back in the 80's, EVH and other "big guns" started using tube amp heads with dummy loads, which then ran through dedicated mixers, FX, power amps and eventually to the cabs. Basically turning the tube amp into a preamp.

 

[bladlus]

Ok, wait a minute. You say that many guitarists don't understand the difference between the 2 schools of thought. I think that that is very fair. But then you say that guitarist start talking about how a specific (FRFR speaker) adds warmth or punch. The basic premise here is that we do NOT want a truly neutral cab to add warmth or punch. We want it to remain neutral.

HOWEVER, if the guitarist can't distinguish between the 2 schools of thought, then when the guitarist is talking about warmth, who is to say that he is hearing something that the speaker cab imparts, as opposed to hearing a more neutral speaker bringing out the warmth of the AxeFx??? IOW, if I am a guitarist who can't separate the 2 schools of thought, and I hear a cab and say "Wow. This cab sounds so much warmer" you are suddenly assuming that I AM not only capable, but making an accurate assumption. Thats a contradiction. If we are to believe your (I feel, valid) argument that I can't separate te 2 schools of thought, it could very well be possible that when I think the cab is adding warmth, what I am REALLY hearing is a cab that is MORE neutral, and bringing OUT the warmth of the AxeFx!

Exactly, which is why, if I understand it right, there can be no subjectivity involved when testing FRFR speakers. "This one has a nicer high end", "That one has a more flubby bass" - such statements wouldn't contribute to finding the most neutral speaker at all, because that "nice high end" might just be coloration or just your own preference. Their neutralness would have to be tested scientifically.

 

[cemusic]

Is the sound of the Axe thru a good pair of headphones and a good quality headphone amp a good standard to judge a FRFR system against?

 

[joegold]

So Jay...

Would you be willing to list some of the things we consumers should be looking for when shopping for a decent-sounding FRFR system to be used with the Axe?
Are there code words that manufacturers use in their published specs that we should look out for?
Is a good coaxial system always better or worse than a a comparably designed 2-way system?
Is it wise to stay away from ABS or other synthetic materials for the enclosure in favour of a wood enclosure?

Would you ever be willing to make recommendations for or against any commercially available products with which you have personal experience?
Etc., etc.

Or is it simply a matter of assuming that the more expensive product is the better one? lol

It's kind of interesting to me to muse over the paradox that the Axe-FX presents to us all when we get into wanting to use it in an FRFR rig.
Cliff has done such an amazing job of modelling the audio signal that a tube guitar amp puts out into a speaker cabinet (with cab block off) as well as the audio signal of a mic'd guitar cabinet in the studio (with cab block on).
But guitar amps are completely lo-fi affairs.
Guitar amps sound great to us based on other characteristics they possess, not on their linear audio signal.

Cliff's task was to bring that same lo-fi guitar-amp charm into the hi-fi world. But in order for us to really experience the Axe's intended sonic palette, we need to use a very hi-fi system in order to fully replicate the lo-fi nature of a real guitar amp.
It's kind of a Catch 22 of sorts, I think.

I suppose that one way for those of us who can't afford a super-hi-fi FRFR monitor to proceed is to do our programming at home on the very best studio monitors we can afford to buy.
This should ensure that when we go direct into the FOH system on a gig, that the sound guy has a signal to which he shouldn't have to do all that much extra EQ'ing on.
Then we can use one of the Axe's EQ's on our consumer-level FRFR monitoring system to just round out the problems with that particular system.
I think that's a compromise that most of us would be willing to live with.

Still, it would be better to have an FRFR system on stage with us that recreates the signal that the Axe is sending to it in as much detail as possible.

And to the people who are asking why it's so important to have an accurate system on stage with you in spite of the fact that many stages will ruin your sound anyway...
It's the same problem with a real guitar amp.
You can have the best guitar amp in the world on stage with you and still have it sound like shit in a bad sounding room.
But if you had a lesser amp on that same stage with you it would sound even shittier.
I think that most of us would rather start the best sound we can get.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Another viewpoint.

A lot of guys are totally mystified and making it seem as if the totally uncolored flat response monitoring setup is an unobtainable holy grail.... sigh.

Guys, a properly done studio monitoring setup in a properly treated room gets you there. Not magic at all. Totally doable.

Bring that live is where current offerings out there can't hold up comparatively.

But let's be real here; this isn't some impossible goal... it's easy to experience by just using a reasonable system in a properly treated room.

Or continue gnashing your teeth and trying to grind Jay into the ground for not giving up a lifetime of experience and knowledge in a post on a forum. You could take a course for a full semester at a college and still not even have the basics to begin that journey... and that costs $$$. Folks grinding on Jay for free consultation here and then bashing him about for even speaking up? Bad form.

Flabbergasted at the entitlement of some folks. Get to a proper studio and hear your Axe-FX for real. Accept that you will probably never have that sort of monitoring experience in a live situation unless you have MONEY and CARTAGE to lug the massive system to pull it off. Pffft. Just make music, as imperfect as it is and be in the moment as you do. Too much arguing about the quality of the wrenches and not enough attention to handling the tools to achieve the goal - making music. Current offerings are flawed for live on stage FRFR monitoring, even on the higher end. No reason to get upset over it.

 

[Doug]

Guys, a properly done studio monitoring setup in a properly treated room gets you there.

But let's be real here; this isn't some impossible goal... it's easy to experience by just using a reasonable system in a properly treated room.

Current offerings are flawed for live on stage FRFR monitoring, even on the higher end. No reason to get upset over it.

I'm not trying to ask a trick question here, but I'm confused. I don't play in a properly treated room, I play in my family room, wood floors, fireplace, large kitchen and small seating area basically attached to the family room. Am I expecting too much of an FRFR system (A7X's to be specific) in my example? I don't mind having to tweak to get a sound, but I don't want to be using a screwdriver when I need a wrench.

I know there is no definitive answer, but I'm eager to hear opinions.

 

[joegold]

Well, great monitors in a poorly treated room will still get you closer than bad monitors in that same room.
You'll just be missing some detail in the sound that you probably won't notice until you find yourself listening in some other room on some other gear.

 

[Scott Peterson]

I'm not trying to ask a trick question here, but I'm confused. I don't play in a properly treated room, I play in my family room, wood floors, fireplace, large kitchen and small seating area basically attached to the family room. Am I expecting too much of an FRFR system (A7X's to be specific) in my example? I don't mind having to tweak to get a sound, but I don't want to be using a screwdriver when I need a wrench.

I know there is no definitive answer, but I'm eager to hear opinions.

No, you are not expecting too much as long as you understand the shortcomings of any given system. As Joe points out, the room has EVERYTHING to do with it beyond the speaker. And even Jay's solution, moved room to room, will sound different.

The key, IMHO, is recognizing those 'issues'; accepting their existance and simply working around them anyway.

There is nothing wrong with exploring the top end of what CAN be done with top notch stuff. There is nothing wrong with making music with gear that is 'lesser'; it does not diminish the art.

Some folks are just hung up on the best; and nothing short of the 'best' will be acceptable. My point is that no matter how 'best' you can get, there are too many variables to account for every situation and your 'best' will always be compromised anyway. The moral? Relax and make music with what you got. This isn't rocket science, it's amplified guitars.

 

[hippietim]

Another viewpoint.

A lot of guys are totally mystified and making it seem as if the totally uncolored flat response monitoring setup is an unobtainable holy grail.... sigh.

Guys, a properly done studio monitoring setup in a properly treated room gets you there. Not magic at all. Totally doable.

Bring that live is where current offerings out there can't hold up comparatively.

But let's be real here; this isn't some impossible goal... it's easy to experience by just using a reasonable system in a properly treated room.

Or continue gnashing your teeth and trying to grind Jay into the ground for not giving up a lifetime of experience and knowledge in a post on a forum. You could take a course for a full semester at a college and still not even have the basics to begin that journey... and that costs $$$. Folks grinding on Jay for free consultation here and then bashing him about for even speaking up? Bad form.

Flabbergasted at the entitlement of some folks. Get to a proper studio and hear your Axe-FX for real. Accept that you will probably never have that sort of monitoring experience in a live situation unless you have MONEY and CARTAGE to lug the massive system to pull it off. Pffft. Just make music, as imperfect as it is and be in the moment as you do. Too much arguing about the quality of the wrenches and not enough attention to handling the tools to achieve the goal - making music. Current offerings are flawed for live on stage FRFR monitoring, even on the higher end. No reason to get upset over it.

So one conclusion that could be drawn from that post is that FRFR is not the way to go. I know that's not what you are saying but it's one reasonable conclusion. Because if it takes an unreasonable amount of money and folks to haul it around then you would be way better off with a power amp and a guitar cab because you can get great sounding power amps and cabs for reasonable money that don't totally suck to haul around.

A lot of us have been reasonably satisfied with <insert FRFR here>, but I don't know of many folks absolutely jumpin' for Jesus over their rig. I really like my Axe-FX and 12ma but if I'm being completely honest, my Bogner Fish + Boogie 2:90 + Boogie 2x12 sounds at least as good and actually feels better - it is so much more "alive" (for lack of a better term to describe that physical connection you get). It's really difficult to control levels with that rig though so the Axe-FX + 12ma is a more effective solution - so while the Bogner/Boogie rig is more satisfying to play, the Axe/FBT is more satisfying for the sound of the band.

I would still like to find an FRFR solution that gets me to where Scotts is talking about when he played Jay's rig. I wouldn't mind spending some serious money to do it either. But I've bought and sold so many different FRFR and other options that I'm tired of the hassle. Quite frankly I'd like somebody who's ears I trust to say "buy this" and be done with it. And there's the dilema. Who's ears to trust? Well, I trust Jay's. I trust your ears Mr. Peterson. I trust Cliff's ears. And a couple other folks. For obvious reasons Jay isn't going to be giving advice on which speaker to buy. And Mr Peterson, you and I have been down nearly the same road with FRFR speakers so until you try something new your're no help LOL. Cliff has no great motivation to tell us to get anything other than the Atomic (which I already tried). And the other folks I'd trust are in about the same position I am in.

It's great to have such excellent tools like the Axe-FX but when it is so difficult to use it to it's fullest potential it can be disappointing and down right frustrating.

 

[mark_melling]

A lot of us have been reasonably satisfied with <insert FRFR here>, but I don't know of many folks absolutely jumpin' for Jesus over their rig. But I've bought and sold so many different FRFR and other options that I'm tired of the hassle.

I cant speak for anyone else but for me personally i am a perfectionist..and its really annoying..but lose motivation for my playing if i feel compromised with my tone.
I tried FRFR Atomics ext, and Ir's for over a year but it wasn't working for me at all..lacked the time learn to delve into it as much as was needed.

Now i have just bought a Vox to use the Ax for effects and i'm thinking of the VHT 2.50.2 and cab for heavier stuff.

I think if you get to the point of it all being a hassle, its really not worth chasing anymore and go with something you can be content with otherwise nothing suffers more than your music..no equipment is worth that!!

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Would you be willing to list some of the things we consumers should be looking for when shopping for a decent-sounding FRFR system to be used with the Axe?

If you're talking about sonic attributes, here's a post on the old forum in which I outline an evaluation procedure: Axe-FX :: View topic - Checklist for testing FRFR.

Are there code words that manufacturers use in their published specs that we should look out for?

"Published specs" are of minimal use. You can find out what size transducers are in the speaker, what its dimensions are, what color it is, and how much it weighs. Beyond that, all bets are off.

Is a good coaxial system always better or worse than a a comparably designed 2-way system?

All else being equal, yes. All else is very seldom equal, however.

Is it wise to stay away from ABS or other synthetic materials for the enclosure in favour of a wood enclosure?

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with plastic-based materials for enclosures. However, because molded enclosures are universally adopted as a cost-reducing measure, it is too often the case that acoustic properties take a back seat. Certainly in low- to mid-priced speakers, wood is a preferable material.

Would you ever be willing to make recommendations for or against any commercially available products with which you have personal experience?

Yes, but I generally make it a point not to have those experiences. I will say that Scott's Turbosounds are good speakers.

Or is it simply a matter of assuming that the more expensive product is the better one?

The good stuff ain't cheap, but, by itself, a willingness to write large checks does not guarantee that you won't get a POS. There's no substitute for due diligence.

Cliff's task was to bring that same lo-fi guitar-amp charm into the hi-fi world. But in order for us to really experience the Axe's intended sonic palette, we need to use a very hi-fi system in order to fully replicate the lo-fi nature of a real guitar amp.

Yep. It's a logical paradox all right.

I suppose that one way for those of us who can't afford a super-hi-fi FRFR monitor to proceed is to do our programming at home on the very best studio monitors we can afford to buy.

Just make sure to do it at gig-realistic levels.

This should ensure that when we go direct into the FOH system on a gig, that the sound guy has a signal to which he shouldn't have to do all that much extra EQ'ing on.
Then we can use one of the Axe's EQ's on our consumer-level FRFR monitoring system to just round out the problems with that particular system.

If I had to use rented amplification at some point, that's the approach I'd take. If you know what your signal is supposed to sound like, you can use the available tools to get it as close as possible to that ideal in any given situation.

And to the people who are asking why it's so important to have an accurate system on stage with you in spite of the fact that many stages will ruin your sound anyway...

That assertion is not entirely correct. Given the appropriate loudspeaker characteristics, you can have some degree of ability to overcome undesirable acoustics. That's a whole 'nother subject, however.

It's the same problem with a real guitar amp.

It can be quite a bit worse with a guitar cab. My monitor is far better able to overcome poor room acoustics than a guitar speaker can ever be. Again, that's a new set of issues. Almost no stage monitor designs and very few small to medium FOH speakers successfully address those issues.

I think that most of us would rather start the best sound we can get.

I agree.

 

[shasha]

Some folks are just hung up on the best; and nothing short of the 'best' will be acceptable. My point is that no matter how 'best' you can get, there are too many variables to account for every situation and your 'best' will always be compromised anyway. The moral? Relax and make music with what you got. This isn't rocket science, it's amplified guitars.

I suppose that you missed the memo that was passed around that said that instead of worrying about playing that it's a competition and the guy with the best gear wins. :razz

I won't pretend to know Jay or speak one way or the other about his knowledge because it's the internet and he could be a 15 year old kid on his brother's PC...I doubt that's the case, but a grain of salt is always a good idea. But what I will say is that regardless of whether he knows everything or he knows nothing about speaker building is irrelevant. If he came on here and posted step by step instructions on how to build the ultimate FRFR/AxeFX monitoring solution there would be someone that didn't like it and would get all bent out of shape and probably give him a hard time over it.

All of this stuff is subjective; if you ask 100 people what the 'best' tone is you are going to get 100 different answers. What works for one person won't for another and what sounds harsh or muddy to someone will sound amazing to another.

I have no idea why on earth someone would willingly open themselves up to that kind of potential animosity.

 

[Rex]

So one conclusion that could be drawn from that post is that FRFR is not the way to go. I know that's not what you are saying but it's one reasonable conclusion. Because if it takes an unreasonable amount of money and folks to haul it around then you would be way better off with a power amp and a guitar cab because you can get great sounding power amps and cabs for reasonable money that don't totally suck to haul around. .

For some folks, that's exactly the conclusion. But you have to be willing to live with the one tone that cab is able to produce. And note that you can also get great-sounding FRFR solutions for reasonable money that you don't need to haul around. Even with the great-performing stuff (Jay's speaker, for instance), I don't see how cartage is a problem.

Quite frankly I'd like somebody who's ears I trust to say "buy this" and be done with it.

That's what everyone wants. I know I want it. That's why people eat up online reviews of products, and endlessly discuss and disect the published opinions of others. We all want someone to tell us what we should get. In truth, there are so many kinds of products (FRFR speakers, MIDI pedals, cell phones, toaster ovens...) that there's no way one individual can learn enough to make the best choices in all categories. You have to choose what areas are important enough to you to warrant deeper investigation. And at some point, you have to stop reading reviews and opinions. After a while, they actually cloud your decision.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I won't pretend to know Jay or speak one way or the other about his knowledge because it's the internet and he could be a 15 year old kid on his brother's PC...I doubt that's the case, but a grain of salt is always a good idea.

Because I use my real name here, it is possible for an interested party to find out a bit about me. This is not to assume you're interested, just to point out that your statement is a little hyperbolic....

 

[shasha]

Because I use my real name here, it is possible for an interested party to find out a bit about me. This is not to assume you're interested, just to point out that your statement is a little hyperbolic....

Yeah, it was tongue in cheek

That brings up another great point; you're using your real name on here. If it was me most of my posts would be measured in order to maintain seperation from the forum member Jay and the professional Jay. That may not be the case, but it's something that I would have to take into consideration.

Plus this place isn't supposed to be work.

 

[mhd1970]

Get to a proper studio and hear your Axe-FX for real.

that's exactly what i want to do. seems the only way to know for sure if the axe can really do it for me, and whether or not it's worth the trouble to pursue FRFR.

 

[brain21]

Or continue gnashing your teeth and trying to grind Jay into the ground for not giving up a lifetime of experience and knowledge in a post on a forum. Folks grinding on Jay for free consultation here and then bashing him about for even speaking up? Bad form.

Flabbergasted at the entitlement of some folks.

I don't know if this is partially, or totally directed at me, but I think it was myself and one other taking Jay to task, and that was about it, so I'm guessing that you might be talking about me here. So, let me clarify a few things:

- I personally am NOT trying to get Jay to give up a lifetime of experience. Never asked him to at all. I asked a pretty simple, general question that started all of this, and prefaced it with certain statements so that hopefully they would NOT be misinterpreted. A preemptive measure that some ignored or gave no credence to. Whatever. They ignored it and this was the result. Just as I had feared, and why I posted it to begin with. Sigh.
- I'm not grinding for free consultation. I understand he doesn't have to answer a damned thing, and I do not in any way, shape, or form feel like I am entitled to an answer either. I already made that abundantly clear. I DO feel entitled to civil, non-accusatory, even-handed interactions unless I start something myself. Thats NOT what I got.
- I am not bashing him for speaking up or anyone for speaking up, I called him out for speaking rudely when it was completely uncalled for. That is all.

I admit I do have a problem when it seems like someone is using their unique position of power or knowledge as a shield that allows them to act arrogantly or any way they see fit, ESPECIALLY when it is in disrespect towards others and completely uncalled for, and/or when others create the environment that allows the behavior to ocurr because everyone is too scared to speak up. I also realize that sometimes the person using their position of power to allow for unfettered bad behavior may also not realize exactly what they are doing (that too is their issue though).

There seems to be a great deal of "this guy knows SO much. If he is an ass, so what, we are lucky to have him here, so we will give him a free pass on being an arrogant ass, cause we don't care about those he acts poorly towards as much as we care about the priviledge of having him here" And that statement is NOT directed solely at Jay, or even this forum. I see this ALL the time. Hell, I see it at work. I'll see an engineer who is really smart act like a complete dick to his co-workers. His manager gives him a free pass on his arrogance and poor attitude that he would never give to another engineer. The thought is "he is so great, I don't want to discipline him cause he might leave".

Thats not managing. Its cowardice and lack of character on the part of the manager, and lack of character on behalf of the engineer. A real life example. At my work, a few years back we had 2 teams of engineers working together to create a product. On team A there was such a guy. His name was Mike. Mike was never an ass to me. He had known me as a coworker for about 10 years+ and I guess he respected me to a certain extent. Or he liked me as I am a no bullshit kind of guy. I'm not sure which. Doesn't matter. I personally witnessed him raise his voice at and insult and demoralize people on team B because he felt they were stupid, or asked stupid questions. Sometimes he simply made snide remarks, or remarks out of a place of complete arrogance, and sometimes he was way over the board insulting to the people on team B. At one point I talked to his manager. I explained that it was not personal. I had never had a problem with him, but his treatment of others on team B was completely inappropriate for a work environment (or really any other). It was completely unprofessional, lacked decorum, to put it mildly. I was answered with "yeah I know, but thats just Mike. You know how he is" I met this resistance all over. Because he was such an excellent engineer people were always willing to overlook his sometimes abusive behavior and give him a free pass. This attitude was everywhere. I was disgusted by it. None of our damned managers knew shit about leading people. That was their job, and they couldn't do it. They were spineless and shouldn't have been in their positions (why there were is a whole other thread - lets just say they were in their management positions because of their experience as engineers, and NOT because of their ability to manage squat). So what happened? Well Mike's attitude eventually permeated through Team A. Other engineers on team A, while not taking to verbally berating team B members in front of coworkers, would definitely take an arrogant attitude towards team B "because they can" and no one would do shit about it. The eventual outcome of all of this piss-poor leadership, and even worse behavior by the team A engineers was that the 2 teams that were supposed to be working together for a common goal developed an antagonistic attitude towards each other, and the resulting product was weak to put it politely. It wasn't even close to living up to its potential. Both sides blamed each other. While I was on team B I had no problem with any of the team A members save one who decided to complain to his manager about me by quite literally making stuff up about me. I never got that because *I* was the one who in the past had DEFENDED him to my other team members. No good deed goes unpunished. I saw what had happened and was disgusted with the people, their attitudes, and management's complete lack of ability to lead. I left the team for one in a completely different area. My engineering days were over. Not too long after I left, under the strain of the animosity, both teams ended up br4eaking up and losing a lot of team members. I guess they decided that I had the right idea in leaving for another dept.

None of that needed to happen.

The point of that is not really to complain about management but to show that ANYWHERE allowing poor behavior to continue and not speaking up about it because "that guy is SO good, and we need him" is not a way to progress and make for a harmonious environment.

If I got into a discussion on general or specific relativity with Einstein, I would NEVER challenge him on an academic level. It would be a ridiculous proposition. However, if he were an ass, I would CERTAINLY challenge him on a HUMAN level. And I would have every right to do so, and we would be on at least equal footing.

Look I call them like I see them. And I willingly admit that thanks to this medium in which intentions can be sometimes easily misunderstood, I see them wrong sometimes. When I can see the potential for that coming, I try to head things off at the pass (saying things like "this is not a challenge, I am asking out of true curiosity" etc.). If someone chooses to ignore that, then problems can being. Not my fault, for the most part anyway. Sometimes, being human, I fail in that respect. However, unlike many, I try REAL hard to be a man about it and admit my mistakes. Unfortunately, not everyone else does. And no, I'm not directing these comments to Jay or anyone on this forum. I am saying these things as a generalization of myself. However, I can't help it if you're so vain, you probably think these words are about you. LOL

And I do apologize for my part in almost hijacking this thread. It was never my intention, but I'm not gonna be "stepped on" (for lack of a better term) and just take it, no matter who its from.

 

[LMO]

My theory is, Jay figures if we're all a little afraid of being made to look stupid, he'll be able to spend his time discussing more interesting topics.

I went back last week and reread every thread, from both old and new forums, that Jay had posted in, and that contained the search term "FRFR". I didn't find a single example of Jay making a rude comment. Terse, yes. Abrupt, perhaps by some definitions.

I did find another thread from a while back that started off like this one. Someone tried a high-end speaker and was amazed at the improvement. For some reason it didn't generate the level of interest that this one has.

 

[jproxu]

Thanks brain for sharing some of your life experiences and the lessons learned from them. Now I'd like to get back to the issue at hand. The very first post inspired me to buy a pair of Jay's FRFR systems because I am willing to spend more $$ to get a truer representation of what the AxeFx can do. Based on some reviews here (yes I am one of those people that has a tendency to buy based on consistency of reviews and I feel good knowing that those on these forums are q