Input gain and metering

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GlennO said:
In the other thread about adjusting input sensitivity, I started thinking about the consequences for preset sharing. It seems to me the goals for the input sensitivity adjustment are:

1) Have a full dynamic range to the ADC. In other words, your signal should be as loud as possible to minimize noise introduced by the ADC.
2) Avoid clipping. You don't want it so loud that it clips.

What if there was an option to just have a single gain adjustment before the ADC, and a meter that shows if you clip? In other words, have an option to avoid the compensation that is causing confusion and have a meter that lights up the top LED only when you clip?


This would have a significant benefit: if all AxeFX users adjusted the input levels so the meter showed a strong signal just short of clipping, this new design would mean all AxeFX users would be using a similar signal strength at the start of the digital processing chain. This would make it a lot easier to get good sounds when playing the factory presets or shared presets because everyone would be using a signal strength that matches what the preset authors used. As it is currently, the compensation gain ensures everyone is using different input signal strengths and getting inconsistent results when using the factory or shared presets.

Look at the confusion that occurred when Cooper demonstrated factory presets. That revealed that he gets very different sounds out of those presets than many other people because of differing input signal strengths. I wouldn't be surprised if getting rid of the compensation gain and adjusting input gain to a nominal level as I suggest above would lead to a revelation for many people when they try the factory presets (or shared presets) again with this new system.

People always like to complain about factory presets and there are other factors of course that will affect how a preset sounds with a particular guitar, but offering a way to avoid the compensation gain would at least put everyone on a level playing field when it comes to input signal strength.

In summary, the current design is perfect for faithfully emulating the original tube amp. I wouldn't presume to suggest changing that. But, perhaps there's a way to supplement the design with an option to avoid the compensating gain to help with preset sharing.
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What you want is a Behringer V-Amp. No product in the history of guitar electronics has made the guitar being used less relevant.
 
All modelers, including the AxeFX, have a global input level adjustment. The idea in this thread is basically a suggestion on how to make use of this existing feature in an intelligent and optional manner to help solve a common problem. No, this isn't how a tube amp works, but most interesting innovations in digital modelers come from doing things that tube amps can't do.
 
I'm not an owner yet (on the waitlist), but I have to chime in that the idea of a model in the III responding to my pickups like its real world counterpart is the most appealing thing to me. Gain structure is so important for good tone, and it's something VSTs have not been able to solve accurately. I absolutely want vintage level pickups to be gentle on the input, etc. What I'm looking forward to is the ability to use something that responds to the dynamics of my playing like the real deal.

Of course lots of great audio engineering comes from busting out from the confines of audio equipment (of any ilk, not just for guitar), and I think Cliff is acknowledging that with his FAS models that have no real world counterpart. I understand what the OP is asking, but I couldn't feel more opposite! The character of my guitar, the wiring I've implemented for it, is everything, and, to me, normalizing the input gain to a preset author's is kind of, I don't know, making what is so unique to my sound into something more generic and less expressive!

To me, the idea of having something whose gain structure is exactly like the real world amp, pedal, or anything else, is a godsend. In the end, I think of it as trust for the many engineers who authored their circuits, or, in so many cases, just modded another's circuit haha! But the tweaks that are available in this thing seem like they more than cover what any player would want to do, including, for what it's worth, that new global input setting.

I think presets are a wonderful guidebook if you're learning your own path and teaching yourself what parts of a chain do to affect your final tone, but I just can't think of the use of others' presets in general as something I could get into. Not trying to speak from a high horse or anything, (I realize this might sound obnoxious), but the mindset of setting any guitar to end up like another is lessening the best thing about playing, how everyone, left to their own devices, might freely sound utterly unique. I think of it that way in any aspect of art.

Again, never having played one, it seems like the III is the ultimate, finest paint palette. I can't imagine taking something that wonderful and just trying to recreate someone else's creation.

To clarify, I'm not trying to say those who think differently than me about tone are inherently wrong, stupid, or anything like that. This is just how I think about gain structure for my playing, and the intentions I glean from the design of the III really speak to me. :)
 
In some ways the debate over authenticity versus flexibility in instrument response reminds me of what occured (occuring still?) for synthesizers... There are synth/sound designers who go after capturing the nuances and articulation control of real-world instruments as faithfully as possible, others who seek sounds and expressions never heard before, and all points in between. They are all valid objectives. The cool thing is the Axe seems to cover a lot of this range of objectives very well. As someone never fortunate enough to own a lot of the great amps/cabs/fx, I particularly enjoy the authenticity aspect even though I mostly have no clue how close it really is other than hearing the praise from those who do know. :)
 
I enjoy indulging in the fantasy of playing through an exotic amp I'll never be able to own as much as the next person. I think that's an important part of the appeal of an AxeFX. I think this thread went off the rails when people starting assuming this was some kind of either/or proposition, pitting authenticity vs. flexibility. I would never for a moment suggest compromising the authenticity of the AxeFX tube amp emulation. I was merely pointing out that there already is a global input gain parameter, and perhaps it could optionally be employed in an innovative manner to address a common problem with presets.
 
I get what you're saying, that you're looking not to change what it does, but to add another feature, or for a way for people to share their tones with the same gain structure as the author of the tone, by adding the ability to weigh the gain structure they used in making a tone in order to give a nod to recreating that tone more exactly. I'm just thinking that, if that were the goal, even with the input levels being matched in one manner, whether peak or rms or however else, as someone else weighed in on this thread, everything other thing about you as a player and your guitar would need to be pretty right on to get it right; I'm just thinking right now about the strangely profound factor of your choice of pick, for one small but significant example. There is pickup modeling technology out there, and I almost feel like you'd need something like that really to get closest to what you're thinking, but I can't weigh in on how accurate any of that is. Not trying to cast harsh judgment on your idea; I'm just feeling differently about it being a desirable thing for myself.

I mean, in the end, it's just about what inspires you, and I can totally see it being the case that someone might hear someone else's tone and just want to play through that tone. I'm not so much considering it in the light of authenticity vs tweakability. So much greatness has come from the audio mind that has no rules. It's just the idea of recreating someone's else's tone down to such exactness, down to their gain structure and everything, just is an idea I'm having trouble looking at as a desirable thing. I love the idea of the sharing of presets as a way to share methodology, really presenting ideas of how to get to different places with sound, or even to show aspects of gear that you might not otherwise have considered. Just my two cents, no big deal! :)
 
State of Epicicity said:
It's just the idea of recreating someone's else's tone down to such exactness, down to their gain structure and everything, just is an idea I'm having trouble looking at as a desirable thing.
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State of Epicicity said:
normalizing the input gain to a preset author's is kind of, I don't know, making what is so unique to my sound into something more generic and less expressive!
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State of Epicicity said:
I just can't think of the use of others' presets in general as something I could get into
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The thing is, that's YOU and your preference... Not everyone's.

There are many who simply want to plug in and play.

They want to hear a nice preset and be able to load it up and sound the same.

For the most part, I'm with you as far as what I want for myself as well so I get where you're coming from.

But I have recognized after 7 years of using the Axe Fx and being very active on this forum that there are many types of users.

Honestly I almost never find presets from others to be useful to me... But I suspect a big part of that is the initial gain staging.
 
State of Epicicity said:
There is pickup modeling technology out there, and I almost feel like you'd need something like that really to get closest to what you're thinking,
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That’s not what I’m thinking at all. Simply trying to learn what gain level the preset author intended for their preset is by no means an attempt to mimic the sound of their guitar.
 
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Sorry, GlennO! I feel truly awful that anything I wrote would cause you to want to pack away the conversation and leave it alone. You should absolutely be able to put forth any idea you have freely. Truly, no offense or ill will intended. Please keep the conversation going; I'll step aside from this one, with respect, and honestly, I'm sorry if anything I wrote came across the wrong way.
 
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No worries, I was not offended. I probably shouldn’t have started this thread until I had a more complete feature suggestion to offer. That would have helped avoid some of the confusion here.
 
GlennO said:
That’s not what I’m thinking at all. Simply trying to learn what gain level the preset author intended for their preset is by no means an attempt to mimic the sound of their guitar.
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Yeah, it's disconcerting to pull up someone's world domination metal preset with my pretty low output EJ strat and not have any real idea how gained up it's supposed to be.

Also, when I find clean scenes that are way way quieter than the gainier ones in the same preset, I figure that means their guitar is way higher output than mine. In that case, instead of turning up the output on the clean, I should turn up input level in a way that affects them both, to both equalize their volumes, and get a sense for how gainy the driven scenes are intended to be.

This is about factory presets too not just random internet stuff.

So @GlennO, don't feel bad about posting this thread, IMO it's a real issue, however each person chooses to handle it.
 
GlennO said:
That’s not what I’m thinking at all. Simply trying to learn what gain level the preset author intended for their preset is by no means an attempt to mimic the sound of their guitar.
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I still don't know how that would be implemented... For an extreme/obvious example, let's say I build a high gain preset with a modern humbucker bridge guitar, and someone with a low output EJ strat on 4th position is supposed to have the same amount of gain? And how would that even be implemented, cus even if dB levels were matched, different tonal output from different guitars means different type/perceived-level of gain?

It just doesn't work unless you homogenize the guitar input and make it so that it doesn't matter what guitar you plug in.
 
Some plugins have a system for normalizing input. You strum a chord and it sets your input gain accordingly. The goal here is not to mimic the sound of the preset author's guitar. It's just to improve the experience of using someone else's preset by adjusting your input level to get it somewhere close to what the preset author used.
 
People seem to be asking about this like it is a new idea. It's not. There already is an AxeFX input gain control for the purpose of normalizing the input level across guitars. The suggestion here is simply to use this existing feature in a new way to address a common problem.
 
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