I had a Sobering Experience Last Night

[VidarAus]

As mentioned, JP isn’t going up against a Marshall when he’s playing his sig.
One thing you could try is adding an EL34 amp to your patch for the best of both worlds in stereo....my go to patch runs a IIC++ in stereo with an Atomica High.......glorious!
And yeah, it might be a good idea to have a power amp and 4x12 to take on these occasions.

Would be keen to try your patch...mind sharing?

 

[Randalljax]

The funny part is when i go to record
Its usually A Recto Mixed with a Marshall because the both compliment each other nicely
The Recto has the girth and just kind of surrounds you locked in with the bass and kick its gives the track
A huge chug
The Marshall is thinner much more focused but it gets all the cut and clarity and sounds more in your face
But both together will sound huge

 

[Rock Chalk]

Would be keen to try your patch...mind sharing?

Sure.

Patch Notes:
In1= Mag Pickups
In3= Piezo System
Out1= CLRs
Out2= 4x12
FC Pedal 1 controlls volume via mixer blocks, including piezo volume in scene 8
FC Pedal 2 controlls wha, talkbox, and kill switch, dependent on scene
The two signal paths are panned via rows in output blocks

 

[stereotactic]

Something which is often unmentioned in discussions of relative loudness between modelers and their real life counterparts, is the different damping factors of the modeled tube amps and the SS power amps used in any PA or monitor/FFR system. In my experience, tube amps/guitar heads have a higher perceived volume/impact that SS amps cant match, until you reach very high ratios. I needed 4 Hafler 500 watt amps to get anywhere near the same perceived volume of 2 Mesa 2/90s going through the same 4x12s.

In my rudimentary understanding, tube amps have a lower damping factor, meaning they control the speaker excursion less, and the wavefront from each note seems more impactful to the human ear because of the sloppy damping. It certainly seems that way to me, and would go a long way to explaining the phenomenon reported in the thread.

Anyone who knows more care to counter my impression or elaborate?

 

[Rex]

Something which is often unmentioned in discussions of relative loudness between modelers and their real life counterparts, is the different damping factors of the modeled tube amps and the SS power amps used in any PA or monitor/FFR system. In my experience, tube amps/guitar heads have a higher perceived volume/impact that SS amps cant match, until you reach very high ratios. I needed 4 Hafler 500 watt amps to get anywhere near the same perceived volume of 2 Mesa 2/90s going through the same 4x12s.

In my rudimentary understanding, tube amps have a lower damping factor, meaning they control the speaker excursion less, and the wavefront from each note seems more impactful to the human ear because of the sloppy damping. It certainly seems that way to me, and would go a long way to explaining the phenomenon reported in the thread.

Anyone who knows more care to counter my impression or elaborate?

A big part of the difference is that solid-state amps transition into unpleasant clipping when you try to push them beyond their rated power. But tube amps generally start distorting in a way that guitarists find pleasant.

Amplifiers are rated to deliver a certain amount of power with minimal distortion. When pushed beyond that, a tube amp can put out significantly more than its rated power, albeit with increased distortion. A solid-state amp will just clip hard, and you won't get much more power out of it.

That said, the 5-to-1 difference in power that you're experiencing seems a bit excessive. Are you sure you're pushing those Haflers to full power?

 

[stereotactic]

A big part of the difference is that solid-state amps transition into unpleasant clipping when you try to push them beyond their rated power. But tube amps generally start distorting in a way that guitarists find pleasant.

Amplifiers are rated to deliver a certain amount of power with minimal distortion. When pushed beyond that, a tube amp can put out significantly more than its rated power, albeit with increased distortion. A solid-state amp will just clip hard, and you won't get much more power out of it.

That said, the 5-to-1 difference in power that you're experiencing seems a bit excessive. Are you sure you're pushing those Haflers to full power?

Yes you are totally correct about the clipping issue, forgot to mention that. It certainly also has something to do with perceived volume.

As for the 5 to 1 difference in power, no I’m not exaggerating, and yes, I saw the Hafler clip lights come on regularly. And to put a fine point in it, those Hafler amps were heavily modified to have a more tube like damping factor, and MOSFETs clip nicer than other SS architectures.

I’m currently using a Matrix 2000W amp into 4 ohms per side, and it’s still not perceived as louder than my Mesa 2/90s by the same band members and myself. After hearing the Matrix, I gave up on the Mesas because the resolution was so much better with the Matrix. But switch mode power supply amps clip ugly, and the Matrix does it’s best near clipping to not get ugly. If only the US had 220 current, I would never run out of current.. A rare instance of genuine cultural envy...

 

[Rex]

As for the 5 to 1 difference in power, no I’m not exaggerating, and yes, I saw the Hafler clip lights come on regularly. And to put a fine point in it, those Hafler amps were heavily modified to have a more tube like damping factor, and MOSFETs clip nicer than other SS architectures.

Interesting. The Hafler's clip LEDs are set to trigger when the output distortion exceeds 3%. If the amp was modified to have a lower damping factor, they might start distorting well before maximum output is reached. That would cause the clip lights to come on early, at lower power levels.

 

[stereotactic]

Interesting. The Hafler's clip LEDs are set to trigger when the output distortion exceeds 3%. If the amp was modified to have a lower damping factor, they might start distorting well before maximum output is reached. That would cause the clip lights to come on early, at lower power levels.

Understood. In any event, I pushed the Haflers hard and they never had quite the impact of the 2/90s. The guy who modified them told me not to worry about the red clip LEDs unless they stayed solid. The 2/90s were also modded with higher voltage power supplies, better caps, voicing circuit disabled and setup for 6L6s. I did everything I could to make sure the back end of the signal chain was as clean and loud as possible...

 

[Rex]

Maybe that higher-voltage power supply can also deliver more current, making the 2/90s capable of more power.

 

[stereotactic]

Maybe that higher-voltage power supply can also deliver more current, making the 2/90s capable of more power.

Yes, I believe that was the goal. They are hard to beat with that modification, sort of a hifi approach to tube guitar amplification. My amp tech complained about the 50 pounds of shit in a 5 pound box design of the 2/90s, but said the transformers and basic architecture were very good from a fidelity standpoint. The only way in which the Haflers beat them was the tighter and lower bass extension.

 

[Tommy Tempest]

For me live is a totally different game, than studio. For me for live, I find in order to keep up with the other Mesa Boogie amped guitar playr is to use my Mesa Rectifier 4 x 12 cab and my Mesa 2 Fifty stereo power amp. I have no problem with this setup and get tons of compliments. I used my 2 x 12 rectifier cab live for he first time with my AXE FX III, and it sounded great too. For FOH, I have a PEQ at the end of the chain and tweak for each PA used and tell the engineer I am going direct and ask to please cut below 100hz and above 8k. Works great every time.

 

[a5150guy]

OK here are the things I have found that work for me over the years.

#1 I always make my tone with more mids and highs than I would alone to compensate for the loudness of the band. Vocals cymbals etc always flatten overall highs. Mids help project. Your bedroom tone uncompensated will sound like mush with a band. Especially heavy gain.

#2 Less gain than normally alone. This gives me a bit more dynamic range and you always sound gainer with a band. Also you play with more energy than sitting at home. Don't need that extra gain. Turn up the volume and get it from the power stage.

#3 ... And your biggest friend live? Play with the proximity control on your cab block. Adds that umph live you absolutely need. I can't stress this enough. With a PA the OP was talking about, you should have sounded like a god. I would have squished that 4x12 like a bug. I have all iterations of the K series QSC's you were using. I prefer the 8's or 10's, don't really get any more lugging the 12's. I can keep up with most 4x12's with one K8.2 or 2 at the most unless you are standing directly in from of the 4x12. QSC throws 105 degrees the 4x12 not so much.

#4 Stop trying to be JP or anyone else. Like what YOU like. If it works, it works. Modellers definitely work in a band situation. Cliff took care of that. Just follow the basic rules and compensate for a loud band.

Just my .02

 

[Rex]

OK here are the things I have found that work for me over the years.

#1 I always make my tone with more mids and highs than I would alone to compensate for the loudness of the band. Vocals cymbals etc always flatten overall highs. Mids help project. Your bedroom tone uncompensated will sound like mush with a band. Especially heavy gain.

#2 Less gain than normally alone. This gives me a bit more dynamic range and you always sound gainer with a band. Also you play with more energy than sitting at home. Don't need that extra gain. Turn up the volume and get it from the power stage.

#3 ... And your biggest friend live? Play with the proximity control on your cab block. Adds that umph live you absolutely need. I can't stress this enough. With a PA the OP was talking about, you should have sounded like a god. I would have squished that 4x12 like a bug. I have all iterations of the K series QSC's you were using. I prefer the 8's or 10's, don't really get any more lugging the 12's. I can keep up with most 4x12's with one K8.2 or 2 at the most unless you are standing directly in from of the 4x12. QSC throws 105 degrees the 4x12 not so much.

#4 Stop trying to be JP or anyone else. Like what YOU like. If it works, it works. Modellers definitely work in a band situation. Cliff took care of that. Just follow the basic rules and compensate for a loud band.

Just my .02

Well put.