I had a Sobering Experience Last Night

deweime said:
This overall matches what I have seen - when one guitarist is playing a modeler (even the best one around) and the other has a cranked tube amp, the difference is very noticeable. As a guitarist and an audience member.
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Is this objectively true? If you have a tube amp playing through a 4x12 and the Axe III playing through a power amp and identical 4x12, and both at the same volume, would people be able to notice the difference? Or if they were both miced up similarly backstage and you were hearing only the PA?

Genuine question.
 
VidarAus said:
Is this objectively true? If you have a tube amp playing through a 4x12 and the Axe III playing through a power amp and identical 4x12, and both at the same volume, would people be able to notice the difference? Or if they were both miced up similarly backstage and you were hearing only the PA?

Genuine question.
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In my experience with this situation the real amp is always just louder.
 
My experience has been the difference is primarily cabinet vs. IR and FRFR.

To my ears, the sound onstage from a traditional guitar amp usually has something wrong with it... often it's boomy or muddy, depending on the stage, back wall, etc. A good FOH engineer mic's it up, put on a little eq, and the audience hears a good, balanced guitar tone. In a venue of reasonable size, at least.

Same with a studio recording--the engineer isn't trying to capture the "amp in the room." Not most of the time. Most engineers are trying to create a great sound with mic placement and processing.

If you want the traditional guitar stage sound--warts and all--I've found a traditional cab is the way to go. And I can see why that might sound more natural in conjunction with other traditional cabs.

I like the stage sound of my III through FRFR, but it's different from using a guitar cab. When I'm the only guitarist, I love it. When I'm playing with other guitarists--especially ones who play really loud--sometimes I miss having a 2x12 or 4x12.
 
Scooped settings are a PITA on stage; 1st of all you're drowned by the bass player while walking on his feet and 2nd of course you're sounding thin with scooped mids...as mids are all what the electric guitar is made for. Change that, maybe add some FET boost and correctly set null mic or mic settings in the cab block eventually a very slight reverb and there you go.
 
James Nash said:
My experience has been the difference is primarily cabinet vs. IR and FRFR.

To my ears, the sound onstage from a traditional guitar amp usually has something wrong with it... often it's boomy or muddy, depending on the stage, back wall, etc. A good FOH engineer mic's it up, put on a little eq, and the audience hears a good, balanced guitar tone. In a venue of reasonable size, at least.

Same with a studio recording--the engineer isn't trying to capture the "amp in the room." Not most of the time. Most engineers are trying to create a great sound with mic placement and processing.

If you want the traditional guitar stage sound--warts and all--I've found a traditional cab is the way to go. And I can see why that might sound more natural in conjunction with other traditional cabs.

I like the stage sound of my III through FRFR, but it's different from using a guitar cab. When I'm the only guitarist, I love it. When I'm playing with other guitarists--especially ones who play really loud--sometimes I miss having a 2x12 or 4x12.
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I'm not some kinda super guitar/amp genius, but like I said in an earlier post, I've had no problems with monitors, and certainly not my Mission Gemini 2 2x12 FRFR competing or fitting in the mix with a second guitarist using a loud tube amp. Even so, I'd they tried to drown everyone out with their stage volume, they wouldn't last terribly long in the band anyway.

I also have a good feel of how to set eq, . Particularly mids and low mids to get the ballsy tone to not get lost in the mix and sound more like my amp/cab stage tones.

Maybe I'm just lucky. LoL!
 
I hear you, William. I've had good luck using XiTone and AccuGroove monitors.

The few times, I've heard back recordings of my rig next to a traditional guitar cab, my tone was always clearer. I liked it, but I can see how one man's "clear" might be another man's "thin."

I know there are players on this forum who are putting a lot of time into trying to replicate the "amp in the room" sound with FRFR. Is it possible ? I don't know, I haven't tried. Personally, I like the sound of a well-mic'd cabinet BETTER than the sound I generally hear onstage from a live guitar cabinet.
 
chris said:
In my experience with this situation the real amp is always just louder.
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Interesting. I haven’t been present for a side-by-side comparison so appreciate views of those in the know. I wonder what is missing from the Axe modelling which causes this?
 
VidarAus said:
Interesting. I haven’t been present for a side-by-side comparison so appreciate views of those in the know. I wonder what is missing from the Axe modelling which causes this?
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Volume. That’s all in my opinion.

Axe players I guess tend to just turn up to what they need since the tone is there at any volume. Real amps often need a certain loud volume to sound good and physical make the speakers and tubes do what they need to. And guitarist habit.
 
lauke-lux said:
Scooped settings are a PITA on stage; 1st of all you're drowned by the bass player while walking on his feet and 2nd of course you're sounding thin with scooped mids...as mids are all what the electric guitar is made for. Change that, maybe add some FET boost and correctly set null mic or mic settings in the cab block eventually a very slight reverb and there you go.
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I guess there is scooped and then there is SCOOPED? Imagine would depend on the amp. As I understand it the JP2C has loads of mids so ‘scooping’ them in the graphic eq is standard practice. I mean, JP doesn’t seem to get lost in the mix!

Seems like everyone always scoops the mids on the mark series amps and they seem to work.
 
chris said:
Volume. That’s all in my opinion.

Axe players I guess tend to just turn up to what they need since the tone is there at any volume. Real amps often need a certain loud volume to sound good and physical make the speakers and tubes do what they need to. And guitarist habit.
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Thanks Chris. Interesting. So it is a choice then not a practical limitation. Run the Axe through a beefy power amp flat out into a 4x12 and should be the same?
 
VidarAus said:
Thanks Chris. Interesting. So it is a choice then not a practical limitation. Run the Axe through a beefy power amp flat out into a 4x12 and should be the same?
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Yup.

The other issue is that the Axe sounds so good at low-to-moderate volumes that people tend to dial them in for that. Then they hit the stage with that perfect bedroom tone, and they don't have enough mids to compete.
 
Isn't this exactly the difference between the actual amp in the room and the axe fx? I always thought that in these comparisons the axe would always lose. Let me explain: The axe will always lose when you compare it next to the actual amp in the room. The fair comparison would be between what the crowd would hear through the pa. So what is YOUR sound coming out of the PA and what is HIS sound coming out of the PA, not out of his 4x12.
I think that that is the place where the golden egg will be found.
 
Interesting thing is to look at some of Leon’s videos.

He plays a still of music which makes me think ‘scooped’ but actually he has quite a bright tone and has described why he does that - to avoid clashing with the bass etc

Might be useful
 
James Nash said:
I hear you, William. I've had good luck using XiTone and AccuGroove monitors.

The few times, I've heard back recordings of my rig next to a traditional guitar cab, my tone was always clearer. I liked it, but I can see how one man's "clear" might be another man's "thin."

I know there are players on this forum who are putting a lot of time into trying to replicate the "amp in the room" sound with FRFR. Is it possible ? I don't know, I haven't tried. Personally, I like the sound of a well-mic'd cabinet BETTER than the sound I generally hear onstage from a live guitar cabinet.
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chris said:
Volume. That’s all in my opinion.

Axe players I guess tend to just turn up to what they need since the tone is there at any volume. Real amps often need a certain loud volume to sound good and physical make the speakers and tubes do what they need to. And guitarist habit.
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Without going to the site, and the price would probably be insane, but didn't Xitone have pics of a 4x12 FRFR custom build once? Or maybe it was someone else. That would probably make some ears bleed.

I'm really more prone to play louder jamming at the house more than live stage volume these days if possible. We've really tried to reduce stage volume as much as possible to conserve the hearing a little more now. I've reduced home jam volume a lot most of the time, too.
 
deweime said:
This overall matches what I have seen - when one guitarist is playing a modeler (even the best one around) and the other has a cranked tube amp, the difference is very noticeable. As a guitarist and an audience member.
Click to expand...

This misconception is entirely due to hearing people who don't know how to dial in their modelers.
(OP, I'm not saying you don't know how to dial yours in.)
This overall is not what I see. What I overwhelmingly see is guitarists in the pro space who dial in the modeler, crank the amp, and compare side-by-side. Then they put the amp back in its road case and hit the stage with their modeler.

But, you need a fair comparison. Both amp and modeler running into cabs, or both being represented in the PA. It's just physics that your ear is going to experience them differently if one is coming out of a guitar speaker and one through a PA speaker. Whichever that is.
 
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VidarAus said:
Is this objectively true? If you have a tube amp playing through a 4x12 and the Axe III playing through a power amp and identical 4x12, and both at the same volume, would people be able to notice the difference? Or if they were both miced up similarly backstage and you were hearing only the PA?

Genuine question.
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1. No, it is not. Far from it. It may, however, be subjectively true for some people. See my post above.
2. No, they wouldn't.
3. Not then, either, no.
4. I've seen this happen with many guitarists whose names you would know.
 
My advice? Dial in a tone you like using the Axe through a combo amp with an FX return. Take that to auditions. That way, you're set sonically if the other guitarist uses a combo, and if he's using a modeler through a PA speaker, you may blow him away if he hasn't dialed his in right! :D
 
ccroyalsenders said:
This misconception is entirely due to hearing people who don't know how to dial in their modelers.
(OP, I'm not saying you don't know how to dial yours in.)
This overall is not what I see. What I overwhelmingly see is guitarists in the pro space who dial in the modeler, crank the amp, and compare side-by-side. Then they put the amp back in its road case and hit the stage with their modeler.

But, you need a fair comparison. Both amp and modeler running into cabs, or both being represented in the PA. It's just physics that your ear is going to experience them differently if one is coming out of a guitar speaker and one through a PA speaker. Whichever that is.
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ccroyalsenders said:
1. No, it is not. Far from it. It may, however, be subjectively true for some people. See my post above.
2. No, they wouldn't.
3. Not then, either, no.
4. I've seen this happen with many guitarists whose names you would know.
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ccroyalsenders said:
My advice? Dial in a tone you like using the Axe through a combo amp with an FX return. Take that to auditions. That way, you're set sonically if the other guitarist uses a combo, and if he's using a modeler through a PA speaker, you may blow him away if he hasn't dialed his in right! :D
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This all accords with logic and common sense, so is great to hear it is also true! Thanks @ccroyalsenders ! Given your experience I think the case is closed on this one :)
 
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