Huge Cable Upgrade

LMO said:
Here's an odd thing--active guitar cables: ZEROCAP Ultra Low Capacitance Guitar Cable
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Seems to be a trend. :? AudioQuest is selling battery-operated speaker cables to the audiophile market, too. The battery pack "polarizes the insulation with a 48-volt charge," to duplicate the "charge" that normally "builds up in the insulation through continual use." They say this "forms the dielectric." The intent is to eliminate the cable's usual "break-in" period. This explanation is wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to start picking it apart. $600 will buy you a 12-foot cable.

Whether marketed to audiophiles or musicians, magic cable theory pretty much all follows the same formula: rip some buzzwords from engineering textbooks, mash them together out of context, stir in a healthy dose of marketing hype, then paint the page with the resulting soup. Sadly, this is even done when selling good guitar cable (low capacitance, tough and flexible) at a relatively reasonable price.
 
I use klotz plus neutrik cables and I'm pretty happy with them, in the future I'll upgrade to george l's because in a little part I think that they will sound better but the 98% of the reason is the easy way to build the cable without soldering, so a pretty fast backup situation for cable pain in live situation. I mostly play live in Europe with my band and I think that buy a cable for 2-300€ is a worst of money (in my case of course) because I use radio and because my sound would be equalized to sound amazing in our magic black box regardless any cable used before it, and I prefer to not think about cheap cable-connectors using by backline at our concert when we don't play in huge venues like outdoor festivals, so I think that the result will not be improved like 2-300€. Just my opinion
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Differences due to guitar cabling are audible, because guitar pickups are extremely high-impedance sources and therefor sensitive to shunt capacitance. Differences in speaker cabling - assuming adequate wire gauge - are inaudible and cannot be reliably identified when the listener has no knowledge of which cable he is listening to. Differences in properly-designed (i.e., shielded twisted pair) line level cabling are also not detectable by human hearing, no matter how golden the ears.

Audio mythology, no matter how widely propagated, is still mythology.

The best (most transparent) guitar cabling is that with the lowest shunt capacitance. You can always reduce shunt capacitance by shortening the cable. The greatest differences among different cables for other uses all relate to reliability (quality of connectors, insulation, etc.) and ease of use (flexibility).
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I know that actually, however i'm almost certain my old speaker cable which is not only about 6 years old, but was also the least expensive I could find, is also not well sheilded, nor of adequate qauge. I can pretty clearly hear a difference if i run the old cable to one speaker and the new to the other, most likely because the cable was extremely long and very poorly made. I'm not trying to say that a speaker cable will normally make a big audible difference, but in my case it has, again, most likely because the cable was so poor. I also should mention i live in an apartment complex and the old cable was probably poorly shielded.
 
adweiss said:
I know that actually, however i'm almost certain my old speaker cable which is not only about 6 years old, but was also the least expensive I could find, is also not well sheilded, nor of adequate qauge.
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First, speaker cable is not supposed to be shielded. There is no possibility of a speaker responding to the fractional microvolts of RF that unshielded cable might pick up, and power amplifiers don't like to see parallel capacitance (which shielding always causes) at their outputs. That's why cable that is sold for use with speakers is never shielded.

Second, "adequate" gauge in the case of an 8-ohm speaker and a cable of less than, say, 25 feet in length would be 18 AWG, not exactly the heavy-gauge stuff. You can use zip cord from Lowe's for speaker cabling, and it won't cause the slightest bit of sonic degradation. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to sell you something, trying to justify something he's bought, or just plain uninformed.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
First, speaker cable is not supposed to be shielded. There is no possibility of a speaker responding to the fractional microvolts of RF that unshielded cable might pick up, and power amplifiers don't like to see parallel capacitance (which shielding always causes) at their outputs. That's why cable that is sold for use with speakers is never shielded.

Second, "adequate" gauge in the case of an 8-ohm speaker and a cable of less than, say, 25 feet in length would be 18 AWG, not exactly the heavy-gauge stuff. You can use zip cord from Lowe's for speaker cabling, and it won't cause the slightest bit of sonic degradation. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to sell you something, trying to justify something he's bought, or just plain uninformed.
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Thanks for the information.

The old cable is a 14 awg about 35 foot cable (I haven't properly measured, just eyeballing it based on my other cables), with switchcraft TS connectors, the new uses Neutrik Speakon connectors.
I don't mean to argue in any way, just trying to figure out why it is I hear what I think i do. I also understand that its likely that my ears are tricking me, I tend to love my new gear a lot more when it is new, but, just in case they are not: how much difference can be attributed to a change in connectors on speaker cable?
I trust your research on this much more than my own, and I like to know as much as I can about my gear, so thanks again for the help.
 
adweiss said:
The old cable is a 14 awg about 35 foot cable
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That is more than adequate gauge for that length, even if your speaker is 4 ohms.

with switchcraft TS connectors, the new uses Neutrik Speakon connectors.
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Speakons are vastly superior, mostly because they are much more reliable and safer (you can't accidentally pull one out). It's possible that tip contact in one of the 1/4" jacks is either sprung or has corroded, in which case the jack would cause more signal degradation than the cable possibly could.

how much difference can be attributed to a change in connectors on speaker cable?
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With new, clean 1/4" connectors, probably little or none. With worn and/or corroded 1/4" hardware, perhaps enough to hear.
 
@Jay,

What's a maximum acceptable shunt capacitance for a guitar cable? By "acceptable" I mean inaudible effect on tone with any pickup combination you're likely to encounter.
 
Here's something that shouldn't be ignored here.

Why Low Capacitance?

1. The higher the capacitance of a cable, the less highs reach the amplifier.

2. High-capacitance cables shift the resonance towards the lower frequencies which dramatically alters tone. For example, Jimi Hendrix used a coiled cord with 3,000 picofarads (.003 microfarads), shifting the resonance below 2,000 Hertz on his Strats. This was the secret of Jimi's tone. Shifting the resonance frequency at 2,000 Hertz has a similar effect to a midrange boost. However, when he recorded and needed a typical Strat sound for some tracks, Jimi switched to a short, low-capacitance cable.

3. There are some very expensive high-capacitance cables on the market with a sound you might like for some tunes, but then you are stuck with that one sound. Using a low-capacitance cable, you can easily change the circuit capacitance by using a push-pull tone control to switch capacitors -- one capacitor for clean sounds and another for distortion. This allows you to choose the right capacitor values to match the pickups, aiming for a 600-700 Hertz resonance for clean sound and a 1500-2200 Hertz resonance for distortion.
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Rex said:
@Jay,

What's a maximum acceptable shunt capacitance for a guitar cable? By "acceptable" I mean inaudible effect on tone with any pickup combination you're likely to encounter.
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The impedance of guitar pickups is so high, especially at the resonant frequency, that there is little chance of any shielded cable of practical length having no audible effect on tone. Shunt capacitance as low as 200pf can cause a 2.5dB response peak at ~2400Hz in a stock Gibson humbucker, along with a rolloff beginning a little below 5kHz. With the same pickup, 20pf has very little effect, but you'd have to do away with shielding altogether in order to get to that low a figure.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
The impedance of guitar pickups is so high, especially at the resonant frequency, that there is little chance of any shielded cable of practical length having no audible effect on tone.
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Thanks, Jay.

Sounds like the best cable (audibly best) will always be the one with the shortest practical length. Bummer...I love the freedom that a twenty-footer gives me.
 
Unless you're experiencing issues with your tone than don't worry about what's "best." If it works for you than it works.

If you do have an issue and need that kind of length or more there is wireless or even active pickups. Regardless I wouldn't worry about it just because of this thread though.
 
shasha said:
Unless you're experiencing issues with your tone than don't worry about what's "best." If it works for you than it works.
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True that. While I don't have an issue with my tone, I had a recent experience that opened my eyes to possibilities that I hadn't considered (when your ideas — and tone — go unchallenged, you may miss out).

I was visiting my luthier freind. Dave (Rusan) has spent decades making a living as a luthier and performing guitarist. He has a healthy skepticism when it comes to guitar folklore that can't be adequately explained or demonstrated, so I took notice when he spoke glowingly of his new Evidence guitar cable. We sat down to give it a try.

We compared the Evidence cable with his old standby of the same length (sorry, I don't remember the brand or model). Dave's guitar was a G&L Strat with Kinman pickups, and was always a joy to listen to. To both of us, the Evidence cable sounded noticeably brighter, with more top end. It wasn't an earth-shattering difference, but it was clearly there.

With eager anticipation, we tried the test with my guitar (an Ibanez 540SQM with stock Quantum Series pickups). To our surprise, we could hear no difference between the two cables on my guitar.

The lesson I took from this is that yes, the guitar cable can make a significant difference in tone, but that difference varies a lot between guitars, and in some cases may be nonexistent.

The other lesson is that, while I may be happy with a tone, my happiness may be caused by my own ignorance of an alternative.
 
Rex said:
The lesson I took from this is that yes, the guitar cable can make a significant difference in tone, but that difference varies a lot between guitars, and in some cases may be nonexistent.
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It will almost always be nonexistent in active guitars.

The other lesson is that, while I may be happy with a tone, my happiness may be caused by my own ignorance of an alternative.
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There are always alternatives. If you're happy with your tone, be very careful about chasing a "better" one. There are lots of rabbit holes, and most of them turn out to be dead ends.
 
Ventanaman said:
Here is a cable that is claiming 20pF/ft capacitance. Is this even possible?

http://best-tronics.com/guitar-cable/pdf/CA-0446Comparison.pdf

I actually have some of this at home waiting to make some cables. I can send out a sample if someone wants to independently test it.
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Yes it is possible. The stuff that Bill Lawrence is selling is in fact the same capacitance/ft. I do think that the mogami and canare specs are not for their best stuff (could be wrong). I was under the impression that it's a bit lower than that chart shows. Could be a lower quality cable they are comparing.
 
I have some super low capacitance cables and I wouldn't confuse it with being a more pleasing sound. I don't like the sound of an ultra low capacitance cable, the capacitance in my opinion is removing audio data we don't want to hear anyway. It's sort of like the way guitar speakers are inefficient, but we like what they do. Granted I guess you could use a PEQ as the first block to simulate higher capacitance on a low capacitance cable by rolling off the high end, but that just seems like more work. I like klotz la grange cables for the input, whatever their mojo is sounds the best to me so it saves a step of configuring later.
 
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