How to use the Axe-Fx with 5 or more guitars (using a mixer)

I

IronMan

Member
Hi guys,

For my teaching business I want to use my Axe-Fx. I know my students are going to love this baby. Let me get started.

Requirements
- 5 to 6 guitars plugged-in simultaneous
- Each channel needs to have a direct-out so I can send each student to a different speaker (this isn't really relevant right now, but it will be in the near future).

If I purchase something like a Soundcraft M8, will I be able to pull this off? Don't I need a DI-box to turn Hi-Z levels into line-levels? I'd use the rear input of the Axe-Fx as the input because it accepts line-levels. I'm not sure if this is possible, but it would be seriously killer if I can use a 2-guitar patch as follows. Two or 3 students could play clean while the others play lead. Will this be possible if I route the first output to the first returns and the second output to the second returns? My thoughts tell me that I can control rhythm / lead with just the Aux 1 & 2 levels.

Full Aux 1 = Rhythm
Full Aux 2 = Lead

Does this make sense? I'm not too familiar with all this mixer stuff so any help is greatly appreciated!
 
The maximum number of independent mono inputs the Axe-FX can accept is four (Input 1 left/right, and Input 2 left/right). That means 4 guitars maximum. The impedence of each input is 1 megohm, so with the right level settings, they will be workable for instrument-level signals.

Likewise, the Axe can provide four independent outputs. That means a maximum of four direct-outs.

There are only two amp blocks available, and these are mono devices. That means you can't give each student his own amp, though you can have two students sharing each amp.

Sorry, you lost me when you skipped from "5 to 6 guitars plugged-in silmultaneous" to "a 2-guitar patch." Also, I don't understand what "Full Aux 1 and 2" are.
 
I know the Axe-Fx has a limit of 4 inputs but I don't want to hook every guitar into the Axe-Fx itself. I want to use the Axe-Fx as a standalone device that I can mix into every mixer channel. As far as I know you can do so with other devices like reverb, compressors, etc so why not with the Axe-Fx itself?

Sorry about the confusing "2-guitar patch". What I mean is that you can easily create a "2 sound" patch where you'll get one type of sound from output 1 and a different sound from output 2. Let's imagine that we have 1 clean sound coming from output 1 and a distortion sound coming from output 2. If you route the output 1 and 2 signals back to the mixer, you can do this with send / return right? (on the mixer itself). I'm not sure if aux is the same as send / return but I think it is. If you look at this picture you'll see the green and blue knobs (http://www.hibino.co.jp/proaudiosales/product/soundcraft/multi/img/spirit-m8_photo_b.jpg). With "full aux 1 and 2" I mean that either knob 1 or 2 are fully turned clockwise, thus mixing the Axe-Fx clean / distorted sound to the desired channel.

Let me know if this makes sense! :)
 
You should be able to do this easily, as long as your mixer has the proper connections. You will need a DI box for each guitar or instrument inputs on your mixer. Use the Aux channels for the Axe-Fx and send each channel a guitar is plugged into to whichever Aux you want. I can visualize in my head how to do it with my mixer, but yours may be different.

Actually a really good idea if you're a teacher and have groups of students...
 
What you've described will work well, with the following limitations.
  1. The Direct Out that feeds each student's speaker will not be flavored by the Axe's amp sims and processing. It will be a very dry version of exactly what's coming from their pickups, and it won't sound like a guitar amp.
  2. Any students sharing a lead (distorted) amp will cause intermodulation distortion (interfere with each other) that will add some crud to their sound. It won't sound as good as if each student had his own amp. This is a limitation of distorted amps, whether they're digital or "real" analog amps.
  3. You won't want to automatically turn your Aux knobs fully clockwise any more than you'd want to turn the Axe-FX input and output knobs fully clockwise. Instead, set them as high as you can without clipping the Axe-FX inputs.
 
IronMan, this is an interesting idea. Out of curiosity, why do you want to do things this way, as opposed to having each student play out of their own basic combo practice amp?

- Each channel needs to have a direct-out so I can send each student to a different speaker (this isn't really relevant right now, but it will be in the near future).
Click to expand...

Are you talking about 6 individual output feeds with which to send each guitarist's sound to their OWN speaker, or are you talking about a 2 speaker system, where ALL of the clean amp sounds are routed to one speaker, and all the lead sounds routed to the other?

I'm not quite clear about the end game here, or how this works for you better than simply having each guitarist plug into their own $99 combo practice amp. Not trying to throw cold water on the idea....your idea is do-able in theory, but would call for a mixer with many routing options and some signal path creativity. As to how WELL it might work in practice, that is another question.
 
Rex said:
What you've described will work well, with the following limitations.
  1. The Direct Out that feeds each student's speaker will not be flavored by the Axe's amp sims and processing. It will be a very dry version of exactly what's coming from their pickups, and it won't sound like a guitar amp.
    Crap... I hoped the processed sound would come out of the direct-out... So that means I don't need direct-outs at all, good to know!
  2. Any students sharing a lead (distorted) amp will cause intermodulation distortion (interfere with each other) that will add some crud to their sound. It won't sound as good as if each student had his own amp. This is a limitation of distorted amps, whether they're digital or "real" analog amps.
    I'm aware of this limitation. As long as it still sounds OK I'm more than fine with it.
  3. You won't want to automatically turn your Aux knobs fully clockwise any more than you'd want to turn the Axe-FX input and output knobs fully clockwise. Instead, set them as high as you can without clipping the Axe-FX inputs.
    Stupid me! You are right because the input signal will vary depending on the guitar. However if I pick the hottest guitar I have and make sure that it doens't clip fully clockwise, I can safely plugin any guitar right?
Click to expand...

jimfist said:
IronMan, this is an interesting idea. Out of curiosity, why do you want to do things this way, as opposed to having each student play out of their own basic combo practice amp?
Click to expand...

Well, the Axe-Fx is the shizzle so I was hoping to save money AND have awesome sound while teaching. Also I want to have control over the general volume. With a mixer this is easily achieved.

jimfist said:
Are you talking about 6 individual output feeds with which to send each guitarist's sound to their OWN speaker, or are you talking about a 2 speaker system, where ALL of the clean amp sounds are routed to one speaker, and all the lead sounds routed to the other?
Click to expand...

In the end I want to route everyone's signal to their own seperate speaker (5 students equals 5 speakers). However, for now I will probably just route everything to 1 mono active speaker

jimfist said:
I'm not quite clear about the end game here, or how this works for you better than simply having each guitarist plug into their own $99 combo practice amp. Not trying to throw cold water on the idea....your idea is do-able in theory, but would call for a mixer with many routing options and some signal path creativity. As to how WELL it might work in practice, that is another question.
Click to expand...

Yea, I understand the concern... I gotta test it first before I'm going to invest anything regarding this setup.
 
You can't send more than 4 separate signals to/from the Axe-FX. Keeping 4 separate uses all the ins/outs. The 5th would have to be mixed with one of the other 4 and share its signal path & speaker(s), or be sent through a different device.
 
  1. IronMan said:
    if I pick the hottest guitar I have and make sure that it doens't clip fully clockwise, I can safely plugin any guitar right?
    Click to expand...
    Right. The same can be said for any setting of the aux send knobs: if the hottest guitar doesn't cause clipping, you'll be safe from clipping no matter what guitar you plug in. So plug in your hottest guitar, switch to your hottest pickup, strum hard, and adjust the aux knob for that channel to just before clipping.
 
OK, IronMan, I understand.

The long and the short of this is that you really cannot "modularize" the Axe-Fx to work discretely on more than 4 simultaneous inputs (Input 1 L, R, Input 2 L,R). Any more than that and you would force the "blending" of more than one guitar into a signal path which would be married to that signal path.

More practically, it seems that you should be starting out with 2 main speakers - one for the "clean" guitars, one for the "lead/dirty" guitars.

A bit about the signal paths and routing via a mixing console:

Let's assume

- guitars 1,2,3 = clean via Axe-Fx in/out 1; 4,5,6 = lead/dirty via Axe-Fx in/out 2
- mixing console to output a single channel of clean MIX, and single ch. lead MIX

Here's how you'd do it:

- plug all the guitars into the mixing board, adjust trim pot input level, eq, etc. Some newer mixing boards can accommodate guitar levels at their input. If not, then a direct box is a technically sound way to solve this matter. Also, it is a good idea to understand the concept of PFL (Pre-Fader Listen) via headphones and PFL input meters to check the levels at each channel input.

- ch. 1-3 clean: use Aux 1 to send these 3 guitar signals to the Axe-Fx rear input 1

- ch. 4-6 dirty: use Aux 2 to send these to Axe-Fx rear input 2

(important note: some mixing consoles provide "pre-fader" aux sends for monitoring purposes, and "post-fader" aux sends for adding effects such as echo. Some even allow you to select "pre" or "post" with a switch. If your Aux 1 & 2 busses are PRE fader, then you don't need to turn up the channel's fader to send signal through the Aux send - just make sure that the Aux's Master output is turned up. But if all of your Aux sends are POST fader, then you'll need to turn up the channel fader to a nominal level - i.e. the Aux send's GAIN is directly tied to the channel fader GAIN. If you don't do this, you won't be sending any signal through the Aux send.)


- make sure that the Axe-Fx I/O config is properly set up, and that your effects grid is set up properly to route In/Out 2 discretely from In/Out 1

- set levels on the Axe-Fx, adjusting the clean/dirty sounds to taste.

- return Axe-Fx output 1 to channel 7; Ax-Fx output 2 to Channel 8

At this point, depending on your mixer, you have a couple of choices to route ch. 7 & 8 to output their discrete audio signals: via Aux 3 & 4, or depending on the mixer, via channel assignments to subgroups OR to the MAIN L/R outputs. The Soundcraft M8 would force you to use Aux 3 & 4, since it has no Subgroups or L/R mains assignment switches. Might I suggest a mixer like the Mackie 1642 VLZ3, which has 4 Subgroups AND Main L/R channel assignment switches.

- Channel 7: turn up the fader as well as Aux 3 (POST fader Aux assumed) to send the Clean guitar mix out to your power amp/speaker for listening.
- Channel 8: same as Channel 7, but use Aux 4 to send "dirty/lead" mix to your amp/speaker for listening.

- IMPORTANT: make sure that you do not turn up the gain on Channel 7's Aux 1 send as this will create a feedback loop to the Axe-Fx. Ditto for Ch. 8 and Aux 2.

If I've covered all the bases and this is done as intended, you should be able to hear 3 clean guitars from one speaker system and 3 dirty/lead guitars from another speaker system. You will be able to control levels and "dry" tone via the individual input channels, as well as the routing and gain of each channel to the Axe-Fx.

Well, the Axe-Fx is the shizzle so I was hoping to save money AND have awesome sound while teaching. Also I want to have control over the general volume. With a mixer this is easily achieved.
Click to expand...

I appreciate that, but JMHO, for teaching you might do just as well to find 6 individual multi-effect pedals (cheap new, dirt cheap used) and a basic 6 channel mixer to blend the sounds and route them. A mixer with channel inserts would allow you to send these individual channels each to their own amp/speaker in the future. Since you'll need to buy the mixing board to do this thing, I don't see how financially you are coming out ahead of the game here. Again, JMO. At the same time, using the Axe-Fx to gets sounds for students is a nice touch.

Good luck.
 
Reverb and Delay are additive effects. They get added to the original sound which remains intact. That's why you can run those parallel, with the effect 100% wet so it doesn't contain the original signal anymore and can be added to that original (dry) signal with the chosen amount. If the added effect sound contains some of that dry signal phasing effects will happen resulting in... bad tone.
Overdrive, distortion, amp and cab sim, compression and such are transforming effects. They change the core signal. That's why running these in parallel is not very effective, since the unappealing dry sound is still present on the parallel path. You can't run 6 guitars through the Axe-FX and have transforming effects done to them and have them come out seperate again. Max is 4, running very strictly hard panning. Two guitars can use amp sims and two guitars will only have a drive block available (which isn't even that bad, as long as they have a cab sim). There are two stereo cab sims so those are doable.

To quote Rex:
Rex said:
What you've described will work well, with the following limitations.
  1. The Direct Out that feeds each student's speaker will not be flavored by the Axe's amp sims and processing. It will be a very dry version of exactly what's coming from their pickups, and it won't sound like a guitar amp.
  2. Any students sharing a lead (distorted) amp will cause intermodulation distortion (interfere with each other) that will add some crud to their sound. It won't sound as good as if each student had his own amp. This is a limitation of distorted amps, whether they're digital or "real" analog amps.
  3. You won't want to automatically turn your Aux knobs fully clockwise any more than you'd want to turn the Axe-FX input and output knobs fully clockwise. Instead, set them as high as you can without clipping the Axe-FX inputs.
Click to expand...

Jam hub does not contain modeling effects, they will have to be provided elseways.
The Zoom G pedals seem to have passable tone for an ultracheap pedal effect.
 
Last edited:
Thanks a lot for all the great input guys!!

You guys made me realize this isn't really a good way to use multiple guitars. I did some hard thinking today and I came up with a perfect solution!! I already own a FireFace 400 which has a total of 8 inputs (2 mic, 2 Hi-Z and 6 line-level). I also own Logic which has the ability to use "virtual" amps. I can easily add these "virtual" amps to the corresponding tracks within Logic. I've tested this with 2 guitars and it's working perfectly! No latency at all and for now I'll just route everything to either 1 or 2 active monitors.
And the beauty, zero costs! Which is great because I could see myself already spending half a grand on just hardware...
 
There you go! You've just come up with a far better and practical solution for sure. Keep us posted with follow up as to how it works in actual practice with students. I'm sure other teachers will be interested in this for group teaching.
 
Dutch said:
Two guitars can use amp sims and two guitars will only have a drive block available (which isn't even that bad, as long as they have a cab sim). There are two stereo cab sims so those are doable.
Click to expand...
Nice! I never though of pressing Drives into service as amps.
 
jimfist said:
There you go! You've just come up with a far better and practical solution for sure. Keep us posted with follow up as to how it works in actual practice with students. I'm sure other teachers will be interested in this for group teaching.
Click to expand...

It worked very well jim! The sound was great... I'm using the "Guitar Amp Pro" plugin and I use a Red Wirez IR within the "Space Designer" plugin. I do however see some improvements. I was jamming with 3 students last night on a single "Seiwin SP210A" active monitor. It became a bit hard to really hear what's going on. I'm thinking about purchasing either another monitor or maybe I can use little monitors for each student (THE BOX MA205 - Thomann Nederlandse Cyberstore). I can mount them to a wall as well.

Does anyone here have experience with good small monitors? The sound quality doesn't need to be super great, I need some relatively cheap monitors and still make it sound good (or maybe decent sounding).
 
no experience with those speakers, but you may want to try adding another Seiwin SP210A and see how things go setting up a stereo mix, and use Panning:

gtr 1: Hard Left
gtr 2: Left Ctr
gtr 3 (instructor): Ctr
gtr 4: Right Ctr
gtr 5: Hard Right

Depending on how wide the speaker placement is, you might just get enough "location" separation to work for you. Otherwise, your individual speaker solution I think would be ideal.
 
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