How are you measuring dB to ensure the best preset sound/level?

[Darrin66]

I've had a dB meter for a while. I drag it out every now and then but I always wonder about its application and effectiveness. How are you using it? Are you holding it a meter away pointing straight at the speaker? Does anybody have one they swear by? Mine was pretty cheap and I read that the iphone/apps are limited/governed to a dB level that ideally wouldn't work for this application. I tried an app anyway and it did seem like once it got loud, I got the same reading even if the volume increased. Between that and wondering about the way and consistency that I was pointing it at the FRFR (EV ZLX-12BT) I'm wondering how much confidence i could have in the effectiveness of the process.

I just bought the AF3 in late May and I couldn't be happier, getting tons of KILLER tones. My friend that plays in a tribute band decided to take the plunge after hearing mine. We've both been playing for decades and should know better but I'm afraid we fell into the same old story as I've read here many times since searching around, we made some presets that sounded killer in my basement (without a band) at what we figured was above 90dB according to my meter. He unfortunately wasn't able to have a rehearsal before the gig. Pretty much 3 strikes and you're out, right? We took it to the bar anyway, figuring how bad could it be? When we got to the bar, it wasn't horrible by any means, but we both felt that it sounded like a million bucks in my basement, but it sounded meh at the bar. The SRV tone sounded cleaner and seemed to have less low end than in my basement.

Anyway, after that experience he's committed to following the process and having a rehearsal now to fine tune. I'm just trying to help out but also be effective and productive helping my friend and figured I'd fire up another conversation to see if anybody had any eureka moments that could help. If I'm just retreading old news, please ignore.

 

[jlynnb1]

there's a preset leveling tool in the box

 

[jlynnb1]

as for dialing in at volume, sadly there's no way to replicate how FM affects tones....just have to find the time get it right, then trust it when dialing in at lower volumes. I don't always get to dial in at volume but I know how my templates/presets sound....so I can go to a gig knowing how they are going to sound even if it wasn't as enjoyable at low volumes at home.

 

[ucnick]

I set rough levels using the preset levelling tool and then tweak by ear at volume as best I can. I use a volume pedal so I can always fine it down during a performance.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Section 7 in the manual talks about leveling presets.

we both felt that it sounded like a million bucks in my basement, but it sounded meh at the bar. The SRV tone sounded cleaner and seemed to have less low end than in my basement.

Basements vary greatly so that tells us nothing about the room or acoustic treatment, what you used as your sound source, or whether it was set up in an equivalent manner to what you're using on stage. I set my presets up using my headphones with a flattening curve, and I've learned that their sound is very close to the sound of my FRFR speakers.

I set rough levels using the preset levelling tool and then tweak by ear at volume as best I can. I use a volume pedal so I can always fine it down during a performance.

I have the Amp block's Level and Gain control in my Global Performance screen, so it's easy to adjust those levels if I need to; Those two controls affect the actual volume of the scene and the perceived volume. I also treat my amps like they're single-channel amps and rely on my guitar's volume to control those sorts of things so I have two ways of dealing with the problem if the amp is too hot. I also have a volume pedal on many presets but use it for an ambient-type scene or pedal-steel-type sounds.

 

[ucnick]

Section 7 in the manual talks about leveling presets.



Basements vary greatly so that tells us nothing about the room or acoustic treatment, what you used as your sound source, or whether it was set up in an equivalent manner to what you're using on stage. I set my presets up using my headphones with a flattening curve, and I've learned that their sound is very close to the sound of my FRFR speakers.



I have the Amp block's Level and Gain control in my Global Performance screen, so it's easy to adjust those levels if I need to; Those two controls affect the actual volume of the scene and the perceived volume. I also treat my amps like they're single-channel amps and rely on my guitar's volume to control those sorts of things so I have two ways of dealing with the problem if the amp is too hot. I also have a volume pedal on many presets but use it for an ambient-type scene or pedal-steel-type sounds.

Yep.

I also use my guitar's volume knob to primarily adjust sustain and tone, but using the volume knob also affects the tonality, plus it is difficult to adjust the knobs while actually playing, so I prefer using the volume pedal as it does not affect the tone and also it does not require use of my hand.

I do also use it for manual swells, etc as well...

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I also use my guitar's volume knob to primarily adjust sustain and tone, but using the volume knob also affects the tonality, plus it is difficult to adjust the knobs while actually playing, so I prefer using the volume pedal as it does not affect the tone and also it does not require use of my hand.

I have treble bleeds on all my guitars, so they only clean up. The tonality remains very constant. I grew up using the knobs so it's second nature to me.

 

[666was999]

Most of the times the mids are missing. You always get tempted to dial in lots of oopmh and crystal clear highs and lots of presence with all these eqs and things. But sound is always a balance and putting one thing in the foreground also means putting everything else in background. Give your presets a mid boost. After the amp block. Start around 300-500hz, Q not too small, maybe 0,7 and boost some db. If your guitar is all too muddy and undefined, that's in the 1 khz area but be careful there and do only very little boosts there, changes there have a bigger impact.
When you add mids and you even can't hear them, they for sure were not loud enough, but even if it starts to sound a bit midrangey, that's how amps are and it is ok.

 

[ucnick]

Been using the good ol' volume knob for 52 years so far and counting. All I used to have back then was the guitar straight into an amp.

Several years ago I tried putting a parallel treble bleed circuit on several guitars, something like a 220k resistor in parallel with a 1 nF cap as I recall, but the mod allowed some signal to bleed through at zero volume, which I did not care for and which also had an effect upon the sweep, so I removed them. YMMV.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I’d wager it’s generally more an issue of room acoustics etc more so than volume level that affects how stuff sound at home vs a gig.

For example, you can have a great sounding reverb at home, even pretty loud, but total mud at the revenue. Or what can sound a bit tinny in an empty basement sounds different in a club with 500 soft bodies,

I don’t think there is any secret to just playing it at a given volume and magically making it translate anywhere.

More about just knowing how the isolated guitar track can sound in a full band mix, backing off reverb, maybe not using stereo effects if it’s mostly mono house sound


As far as meters go, the apps are surprisingly accurate. Tested and compared a dozen or so for a grad school project once and there isn’t much reason to buy stand alone.

Biggest difference is just understanding differences in A vs C weighted, how you set it up etc, using external mic vs built in etc

 

[4406cuda]

Been using the good ol' volume knob for 52 years so far and counting. All I used to have back then was the guitar straight into an amp.

Several years ago I tried putting a parallel treble bleed circuit on several guitars, something like a 220k resistor in parallel with a 1 nF cap as I recall, but the mod allowed some signal to bleed through at zero volume, which I did not care for and which also had an effect upon the sweep, so I removed them. YMMV.

I agree. I prefer 50's wiring in all my guitars.

 

[ucnick]

I’d wager it’s generally more an issue of room acoustics etc more so than volume level that affects how stuff sound at home vs a gig.

For example, you can have a great sounding reverb at home, even pretty loud, but total mud at the revenue. Or what can sound a bit tinny in an empty basement sounds different in a club with 500 soft bodies,

I don’t think there is any secret to just playing it at a given volume and magically making it translate anywhere.

More about just knowing how the isolated guitar track can sound in a full band mix, backing off reverb, maybe not using stereo effects if it’s mostly mono house sound


As far as meters go, the apps are surprisingly accurate. Tested and compared a dozen or so for a grad school project once and there isn’t much reason to buy stand alone.

Biggest difference is just understanding differences in A vs C weighted, how you set it up etc, using external mic vs built in etc

Also Fletcher-Munson aka equal loudness curves.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I tried putting a parallel treble bleed circuit on several guitars, something like a 220k resistor in parallel with a 1 nF cap as I recall, but the mod allowed some signal to bleed through at zero volume

There are at least four different ways of wiring it and a bunch of different values; When I first started experimenting with it I used a bunch of different capacitor and resistor values and experimented with the ways to wire them to find the ones that reacted best with my humbuckers, and then did it again for my single-coils, so they're just enough to retain the sparkle without affecting the taper, resulting in the knob at 0 being totally off. I couldn't stand it if there was any signal bleeding through or the tone becoming too thin.

Now I use mostly PRS, which come with one already and it works just right so I don't need to fiddle with them. The last time I needed to was when I built my last Strat and haven't needed to open it up since so I have no idea what the values are.

The 50s wiring in a Gibson is a nice alternative, but, again, since my LP-type guitar is a PRS SC-245 it was a non-issue.

 

[Darrin66]

there's a preset leveling tool in the box

Preset leveling wasn't an issue

 

[austinbuddy]

Try and dial in at 94 db. It should be LOUD. You are competing with drums. The bass guitar is going to mask any guitar sound under 100-150Hz coming out of your guitar on stage. You are directly competing with it at 80hz.

Note the scale on this db meter. It’s not technically loud until 92db or so. If you want to defeat the Fletcher Munson effect, you should be hitting over 92-95db consistently as you dial in. What you will notice is that low bass and high treble do not matter as much as mids do for clarity. Hope that helps as a contribution to this thread.

“When in doubt, lower your drive gain (too much gain thins tone out) and crank the mids knob.”

 

[RoshRoslin]

As much as people can get technical with a number. It also is incredibly important to use context. Dial in your presets at the volume you plan on performing them at. if you're playing a club, a theater or an Arena. The same preset can sound wildly different (room influence not withstanding) so crank your volume up and make sure that you're taking into account your context (loud drummer, loud band etc.)

 

[Darrin66]

Try and dial in at 94 db. It should be LOUD. You are competing with drums. The bass guitar is going to mask any guitar sound under 100-150Hz coming out of your guitar on stage. You are directly View attachment 108375competing with it at 80hz.

Note the scale on this db meter. It’s not technically loud until 92db or so. If you want to defeat the Fletcher Munson effect, you should be hitting over 92-95db consistently as you dial in. What you will notice is that low bass and high treble do not matter as much as mids do for clarity. Hope that helps as a contribution to this thread.

“When in doubt, lower your drive gain (too much gain thins tone out) and crank the mids knob.”

Thanks! What are you using for a dB meter? I should have mentioned that I think we actually had too little drive, it was very clean. I should have known better as I've always found that it always sounds cleaner when I turn it up. I believe we had too much headroom for the SRV tone and the lack of drive compounded the problem. When we turned on the TS we were getting more volume than usual, it wasn't driving the amp into the overdrive region of the curve. I'm sure we'll sort it out when we do this properly, I just wanted to post in case someone is doing the same thing we did, so we can save them a little time and trouble. And to have a chat with the wonderful people here on the forum.

 

[ucnick]

There are at least four different ways of wiring it and a bunch of different values; When I first started experimenting with it I used a bunch of different capacitor and resistor values and experimented with the ways to wire them to find the ones that reacted best with my humbuckers, and then did it again for my single-coils, so they're just enough to retain the sparkle without affecting the taper, resulting in the knob at 0 being totally off. I couldn't stand it if there was any signal bleeding through or the tone becoming too thin.

Now I use mostly PRS, which come with one already and it works just right so I don't need to fiddle with them. The last time I needed to was when I built my last Strat and haven't needed to open it up since so I have no idea what the values are.

The 50s wiring in a Gibson is a nice alternative, but, again, since my LP-type guitar is a PRS SC-245 it was a non-issue.

Yeah I can think of a few, two most obvious being parallel and serial. I did some sims on LTSpice for some configs to check the responses but just figured to skip it. Anyway to each his own, if it works for you the it works!

 

[ucnick]

As much as people can get technical with a number. It also is incredibly important to use context. Dial in your presets at the volume you plan on performing them at. if you're playing a club, a theater or an Arena. The same preset can sound wildly different (room influence not withstanding) so crank your volume up and make sure that you're taking into account your context (loud drummer, loud band etc.)

This!!!!! +10000!

 

[SJB]

Also don’t forget, the db scale is logarithmic. It takes proportionately larger increases in SPL to go up a db as you get louder - that is probably why you noticed big changes in volume don’t affect db much with generally loud noises. So your app is probably working fine.