How are you measuring dB to ensure the best preset sound/level?

[skolacki]

I use a iPhone app. At my house I’m looking for 85-90db. It’s a free app. NIOSH sound level meter. Last week at work me and another guy compared meter readings. He was using a different app. Mine was reading about 5db lower than his. So I’m getting a general idea but I doubt this app on my older phone is super accurate.

I’m not gigging but I jam with some guys. I have found I usually have to dial down the highs at band volume. I keep that stuff on the performance page. Level gain BMT etc. It’s pretty quick to adjust from my home dialed preset. It’s not just volume, it’s the room too. So some adjustments will need to be made depending on the situation. The idea is to get above the FM curve and get it close enough to allow quick adjustments as needed in a live situation. Try some apps. They’re free.

 

[SJB]

It’s always the room. From home studio, to practice space, to empty venue …. And then crowded venue…. It’s a little like having 4 different presets. Dial it in, tweak it as needed and fergeddaboutit! No one but you hears the difference. And you’ve done all the work dialing in a good preset on the front end. Turn it up and Rock and Roll!

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Now I use mostly PRS, which come with one already and it works just right so I don't need to fiddle with them. The last time I needed to was when I built my last Strat and haven't needed to open it up since so I have no idea what the values are.

PRS nailed the value for treble bleed caps. 180pF on 500k pots. I have adopted this value, and use 390pF (closest standard value to double the 180pF) on 250k pots for my Fender-ish guitars. The tone stays relatively consistent, only getting the tiniest bit brighter at low volume settings....

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I have this PEQ block after amp/cab in every preset, with a dedicated TallTimbers fader controller. Two bands of the PEQ are set up to give some Fletcher/Munson compensation. Center of the control range is flat. Turning up from there adds bottom and top, while turning down from there subtracts bottom and top, leaving the mids more in the foreground. It's not perfect, but it helps. If you dial in presets at a lower volume, you can adjust the tonality a bit at gig volume with one knob. You could also dial presets in at lower volume with the knob turned up a bit, and then roll it back towards center at your gig.

 

[Darrin66]

I have this PEQ block after amp/cab in every preset, with a dedicated TallTimbers fader controller. Two bands of the PEQ are set up to give some Fletcher/Munson compensation. Center of the control range is flat. Turning up from there adds bottom and top, while turning down from there subtracts bottom and top, leaving the mids more in the foreground. It's not perfect, but it helps. If you dial in presets at a lower volume, you can adjust the tonality a bit at gig volume with one knob. You could also dial presets in at lower volume with the knob turned up a bit, and then roll it back towards center at your gig.

Great idea, l'll probably try something like that too, makes sense.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I have this PEQ block after amp/cab in every preset, with a dedicated TallTimbers fader controller. Two bands of the PEQ are set up to give some Fletcher/Munson compensation. Center of the control range is flat. Turning up from there adds bottom and top, while turning down from there subtracts bottom and top, leaving the mids more in the foreground. It's not perfect, but it helps. If you dial in presets at a lower volume, you can adjust the tonality a bit at gig volume with one knob. You could also dial presets in at lower volume with the knob turned up a bit, and then roll it back towards center at your gig.

A while back @yek was talking about the little plug-in controller built into a 1/4” plug. This’d be a good use for them, especially if they’re available with a center detent.

 

[RamboMadCow]

Is the fletcher munson effect fully defeated at 92 - 95? I've gotten in the habit of playing and tweaking presets with a playing db at around 105 - 110 as measured by my decibel meter. If the effect is fully defeated at 95db, then it would make sense for my hearing to play it at a lower volume...but doing that also lowers the fun factor


As a small side question: How many db should a lead guitarist be over the rhythm guitarist? In my Metallica tribute, right now I have the lead preset set at 4db higher on the Axe FX amp block. Is that too much, not enough, or just right? We do also boost his mid and upper mid range when he goes into that preset to help him stand out a little more tonally from me.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Is the fletcher munson effect fully defeated at 92 - 95?

Look at the chart supplied by their research:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/crafting-loud-mixes-sound-great

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/ is useful too.

Too loud is as bad as too quiet, but in a different way. It causes ear fatigue and damages your hearing, so while it’s a visceral experience, back it down.

I’ve been thinking about the following for a long time and it’s something I tell my padawans…

105+ dB will hurt people’s hearing in the time they’re normally in a club and more and more clubs are clamping down on the volume. Think of it this way: If a customer can’t be heard it makes it difficult to order and if the bartender can’t hear they miss orders, and if the owner wants those orders, who are they going to yell at? And if a band consistently gets yelled at, the owner will book someone else. So, it’s a symbiotic relationship, but it’s better for the band to be proactive and act like partners with the club owner to enhance their sales, and not reactive by waiting until there’s a problem. We’re in the perfect position using modelers to control our sound at reasonable stage volumes and make the owners love us.

 

[RamboMadCow]

@Greg Ferguson I would assume that volume level is likely going to be a product of where exactly you're playing. If it's a standard bar, what do you think a reasonable db level would be? Comparatively, when performing at a venue that's specifically built as a music venue hosting tributes as well as big named bands, that just happens to sell alcohol, I would expect that volume to be much louder. What do you think a reasonable volume level in that kind of setting would be?

Edit: I didn't happen to see anything in the first link about how to mix backing rhythm with a solo guitarist at all, particularly regarding volume differences between the two.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Is the fletcher munson effect fully defeated at 92 - 95? I've gotten in the habit of playing and tweaking presets with a playing db at around 105 - 110 as measured by my decibel meter. If the effect is fully defeated at 95db, then it would make sense for my hearing to play it at a lower volume...but doing that also lowers the fun factor


As a small side question: How many db should a lead guitarist be over the rhythm guitarist? In my Metallica tribute, right now I have the lead preset set at 4db higher on the Axe FX amp block. Is that too much, not enough, or just right? We do also boost his mid and upper mid range when he goes into that preset to help him stand out a little more tonally from me.

In the studio music recording class I took years ago, we were instructed that 85dB was the best level for mixing, to minimize tonal issues with F/M at other levels. It's not so much 'defeated' or not, but a middle position where there is minimal issues with sound changes resulting from level changes in either direction up from that point.

It's more of a sweet spot thing than a 'beyond this threshold' thing, so setting up sounds far above 85dB is just as counter-productve as doing so far below that level.

The instructor worked with the likes of Lyle Lovettt, The Pointer Sisters, and Paul McCartney, so I figure he is at least moderately competent.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

@Greg Ferguson I would assume that volume level is likely going to be a product of where exactly you're playing. If it's a standard bar, what do you think a reasonable db level would be? Comparatively, when performing at a venue that's specifically built as a music venue hosting tributes as well as big named bands, that just happens to sell alcohol, I would expect that volume to be much louder. What do you think a reasonable volume level in that kind of setting would be?

If you look at decibel charts, many of them equate dB levels to common situations, and, how long we can be exposed before damage occurs. I think adjusting the volume in the room given the style of music is important, using common sense.

A famous venue here known for blues, R&B, and Soul reopened at the beginning of the year. The first night their FOH was peaking at over 110 dB and stage volume was 106+ dB. NOBODY could hear themselves in the bar, even with earplugs it was painful and impossible to understand anything that was said, and ordering a drink took sign language and pointing at a bar menu. That's an example of not using common sense.

We have another venue in town that's equally famous, that is a little bigger room, and their FOH runs about 100 dB, maybe peaking at 103-4 dB. It's very comfortable, right at the point where it feels like rock and blues should be. It's possible to get an order in at the bar without shrieking, and, yeah, technically earplugs would have been smart, but I was listening critically to the guitar sound so I skipped them. They're my happy place.

I don't go back to the first place I mentioned, though I played there for years, because it's stupid loud.

Edit: I didn't happen to see anything in the first link about how to mix backing rhythm with a solo guitarist at all, particularly regarding volume differences between the two.

I didn't try to answer that. The answer is: "It depends". I'd recommend talking to your FOH engineer because they should be the one setting that increase in volume.

I set a 3-3.5 dB boost on my Out 1 level that's controlled by CS6 and accessed from my Scenes layout(s) if there is no FOH engineer or they're hitting on the bartender. YMMV.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

In the studio music recording class I took years ago, we were instructed that 85dB was the best level for mixing, to minimize tonal issues with F/M at other levels. It's not so much 'defeated' or not, but a middle position where there is minimal issues with sound changes resulting from level changes in either direction up from that point.

It's more of a sweet spot thing than a 'beyond this threshold' thing, so setting up sounds far above 85dB is just as counter-productve as doing so far below that level.

That's a nice "feel good" volume. Even with my headphones, I try to keep it in that range.

The instructor worked with the likes of Lyle Lovettt, The Pointer Sisters, and Paul McCartney, so I figure he is at least moderately competent.

Yeah, a friend of mine runs a studio a couple of blocks from us and teaches recording at the nearby community college. He's always working with Alice Cooper and his proteges, lots of metal groups, and is dealing with tinnitus as a result of his years working in loud environments. I'll pick his brain on what volume he runs the control rooms but I'd bet he keeps it in that range too. It's been comfortably loud when I was there.

 

[Darrin66]

If you look at decibel charts, many of them equate dB levels to common situations, and, how long we can be exposed before damage occurs. I think adjusting the volume in the room given the style of music is important, using common sense.

A famous venue here known for blues, R&B, and Soul reopened at the beginning of the year. The first night their FOH was peaking at over 110 dB and stage volume was 106+ dB. NOBODY could hear themselves in the bar, even with earplugs it was painful and impossible to understand anything that was said, and ordering a drink took sign language and pointing at a bar menu. That's an example of not using common sense.

We have another venue in town that's equally famous, that is a little bigger room, and their FOH runs about 100 dB, maybe peaking at 103-4 dB. It's very comfortable, right at the point where it feels like rock and blues should be. It's possible to get an order in at the bar without shrieking, and, yeah, technically earplugs would have been smart, but I was listening critically to the guitar sound so I skipped them. They're my happy place.

I don't go back to the first place I mentioned, though I played there for years, because it's stupid loud.


I didn't try to answer that. The answer is: "It depends". I'd recommend talking to your FOH engineer because they should be the one setting that increase in volume.

I set a 3-3.5 dB boost on my Out 1 level that's controlled by CS6 and accessed from my Scenes layout(s) if there is no FOH engineer or they're hitting on the bartender. YMMV.

How are you measuring dB at the bar and in your headphones? Or at home for that matter. Is there a meter that you prefer? And are you measuring 1m away or do you have another method?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

How are you measuring dB at the bar and in your headphones? Or at home for that matter. Is there a meter that you prefer? And are you measuring 1m away or do you have another method?

The NIOSH (National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health) app is reasonably accurate. Also "Evaluation of smartphone sound measurement applications" pointed me at SoundMeter X, both are on the iPhone so I bounce between them to triangulate the sound. I'm thinking about getting a MicW i436 out of perverse curiosity to improve the quality of measurements for when things do get loud.

According to "Decibel Levels", setting the volume to be the same as a hairdryer is 90-ish dB, so I run my headphone volume a bit louder than what my experiences with hairdryers taught me they sound like, again, comfortably loud for me.

 

[Darrin66]

The NIOSH (National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health) app is reasonably accurate. Also "Evaluation of smartphone sound measurement applications" pointed me at SoundMeter X, both are on the iPhone so I bounce between them to triangulate the sound. I'm thinking about getting a MicW i436 out of perverse curiosity to improve the quality of measurements for when things do get loud.

According to "Decibel Levels", setting the volume to be the same as a hairdryer is 90-ish dB, so I run my headphone volume a bit louder than what my experiences with hairdryers taught me they sound like, again, comfortably loud for me.

Thanks!

 

[skategeezer]

I use a iPhone app. At my house I’m looking for 85-90db. It’s a free app. NIOSH sound level meter. Last week at work me and another guy compared meter readings. He was using a different app. Mine was reading about 5db lower than his. So I’m getting a general idea but I doubt this app on my older phone is super accurate.

I’m not gigging but I jam with some guys. I have found I usually have to dial down the highs at band volume. I keep that stuff on the performance page. Level gain BMT etc. It’s pretty quick to adjust from my home dialed preset. It’s not just volume, it’s the room too. So some adjustments will need to be made depending on the situation. The idea is to get above the FM curve and get it close enough to allow quick adjustments as needed in a live situation. Try some apps. They’re free.

I have a SSL 2 interface. It has a "meter" on the input channel. I just use the XLR out and adjust my presets to reach the same level on the "meter"
This has been working with front of house for my AX3 and FM9.
I always ask is it too hot too low etc.

 

[Dave Merrill]

PRS nailed the value for treble bleed caps. 180pF on 500k pots. I have adopted this value, and use 390pF (closest standard value to double the 180pF) on 250k pots for my Fender-ish guitars. The tone stays relatively consistent, only getting the tiniest bit brighter at low volume settings....

So just the cap for humbuckers with 500k pots, no resistor?

I talked to Collings yesterday about a treble bleed circuit for my City Limits, because it loses highs a lot when you turn down, even a little. They don't use one on their guitars (more of a vintage vibe I think), but if I want one, they recommended the StewMac Golden Age setup. That's 150k in parallel with . 001uF, they recommended the orange drop version. Part of that is probably that they want to make it as simple and foolproof as possible, but I'm not afraid of a soldering gun

Don't know if orange drop vs ceramic actually matters, but 180pf orange drop isn't that easy to find, at least in my quick look before work yesterday, might not even exist.

One last confirmation. For 2 volume 2 tone setups, you need separate bleed networks for each volume control, right? There's no way to use one for both controls?

 

[MLocascio]

Not sure if this has been requested before, but a new block that could that could adjust the EQ to compensate for the Fletcher-Munson curve could be really useful for translating presets from home to rehearsal to live gigs, etc.

For example, you use a decibel level meter and input that number into the Fletcher-Munson block before dialing a preset at home. Then when at rehearsal or a live venue, you check the decibel levels and simply change the dB level number in the Fletcher–Munson block and the block adjusts the EQ to compensate.

This of course wouldn’t account for room acoustics, which I am in no way discounting, as that is a huge factor as well.

Edit: Or in lieu of a new block, perhaps a simple Fletcher-Munson On/Off switch with a user adjustable dB level parameter in the Out EQ blocks of the setup menu.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

So just the cap for humbuckers with 500k pots, no resistor?

I talked to Collings yesterday about a treble bleed circuit for my City Limits, because it loses highs a lot when you turn down, even a little. They don't use one on their guitars (more of a vintage vibe I think), but if I want one, they recommended the StewMac Golden Age setup. That's 150k in parallel with . 001uF, they recommended the orange drop version. Part of that is probably that they want to make it as simple and foolproof as possible, but I'm not afraid of a soldering gun

Don't know if orange drop vs ceramic actually matters, but 180pf orange drop isn't that easy to find, at least in my quick look before work yesterday, might not even exist.

One last confirmation. For 2 volume 2 tone setups, you need separate bleed networks for each volume control, right? There's no way to use one for both controls?

A 180pF Orange Drop probably doesn't exist. Never seen one below 1nF.

Separate bleed network per volume pot. They jump from the input end of the pot to the wiper of the same pot, to allow the trebles to bypass the series resistance of the top portion of the rolled-down pot.

A good ceramic or silver/mica cap will do fine here. I ordered a slew of 'em from Mouser, IIRC....

 

[Dave Merrill]

A 180pF Orange Drop probably doesn't exist. Never seen one below 1nF.

Separate bleed network per volume pot. They jump from the input end of the pot to the wiper of the same pot, to allow the trebles to bypass the series resistance of the top portion of the rolled-down pot.

A good ceramic or silver/mica cap will do fine here. I ordered a slew of 'em from Mouser, IIRC....

No resistor, just the cap, yes?