Help me understand please! Seamless preset/scene switching...

K

kloppsta

Member
Hi all, sorry for the tl;dr…..really appreciate your advice!!

I know this topic has been done to death but I am still struggling to get to grips with what’s possible and what’s not.

I am considering an AX8 and have had an Ultra and Axe Fx II in the past.

My main concern is the audio gap when switching between presets. I know there are scenes and I am reasonably familiar with how they work and what they can do.

I am really just trying to find out if what I want to do is actually possible or if perhaps I have just not thought of other ways of achieving the same thing……your comments welcome! :)

Being able to change from one sound to the next with instant response is very important to me. To give you some context:

In the music I play I may start the song off with a very delay and reverb laden clean tone, atmospheric, ethereal etc. and then for the chorus I may jump straight into a heavy distorted high gain tone and back and forth etc. as the song progresses.

The important part for me is being able to hit the footswitch to go from clean to dirty “in the moment” and not have to think about hitting it a second earlier etc. I simply can’t have an audible gap going between sounds. The other very important thing for me is having the delay and reverb from the clean preset spill-over onto the dirty preset and decay naturally.

So even though I have switched from the clean tone with tons of delay and verb to a heavy dry dirty tone, the delay and verb repeats trail off naturally against the dirty tone so that there is no harsh or abrupt ending to the effects from the clean tone when I switch to the dirty tone.

My current rig is a midi capable tube amp and I have midi capable effects processors. I use a midi foot controller that changes channels on the amp and switches between presets on the effects unit simultaneously. Because they are totally independent units the amp switches immediately between clean and dirty (no gap) and so does the effects unit. The fx unit is in the loop of the amp and so for all intent and purpose the changes between sounds is totally seamless with zero gap.

I realize I could use a single preset and scenes within that preset to switch between AMP X/Y or have a fuzz/distortion pedal for my dirty sounds but I really don’t want to do that as with the effects that I want to use the preset would be too large and would run out of DSP. Also I don’t want to use a pedal for my gain tones when I have such amazing modeled amps (i.e. BE100, Vh4 etc.) in the unit.

Can this be achieved with the Ax8?

Cheers
 
If you want to minimize the audio gap and have spillover scenes are probably your best bet. There will always be some gap if you're changing amp models, whether within a scene or between presets. If you can get away with using the same amp model for your clean and dirty sounds via scene controllers attached to parameters on the amp or by using a drive pedal then your scene changes should be fairly seamless. This was a bit easier to do on the AxeFx II as you could simply switch between two separate amp blocks with no gap.

I'm also pretty sure spillover between presets requires having identical delay/reverb blocks in both presets, though I've never gone that route. So that may not help you much as far as avoiding CPU overload by using different presets.
 
Hey Kloppsta... I've spent a LOT of time with this over the past few days and it's my understanding that what you are wanting to achieve is not really possible outside of using scenes...

Because the same processor (as I understand it) is taking over effects duties between presets rather than a dual processor scenario there is not enough processing power to make the transition... Spillover relates to Delay and Reverbs where both instances are identical in both presets and even then it's not what i would call seamless...

I have been having good results using scene controllers though which may get you 'in the park'... For example I have a Clean tone that toggles to a pad type sound using the multi-delay and plex-delay and it has a trail of about 12 seconds which does fade nicely as i select another scene...
My effect chain (below) is almost at capacity so if I wanted to add a Drive I would need to remove the Wah which I'm using in a different scene as an auto-wah.
Screen%20Shot%202016-04-04%20at%208.29.21%20am_zpsfjdpvhdw.png

So you could probably rack up a bank of presets that are almost identical save for individual effects that need to differ and achieve what you need to do..
 
Using scenes was quite a revelation to me when I first bought an Axefx. I initially had reservations about the gap between presets but this is nothing new and after working with a TC G-Force for a few years, I had gotten used to the idea of having the next preset the same as the one I had just come from but with different blocks engaged etc.
Anyway, when scenes were first suggested, it opened many more doors for me. Before I would use however many presets per song. Now, I dial my preset for that song and just change scenes to get what I want. Even better on the AX8 that the footswitches can be completely different per preset.
With scene controllers and scenes, I am very happy. I know if I change amps though XY that there will be a gap but otherwise, all is pretty good :)
 
Thank you for your replies everyone! I think based on my own experience with the Axe FX and the reading i have being doing, along with your responses......i believe the Axe8 (or Axe Fx for that matter) will not achieve the workflow/operation parameters that i require. It seems at this stage of the game there just isnt the market or cost-to-benefit ratio for companies to build in totally gapless preset switching into their units. For most folk the way these units currently work is perfect! I however am simply trying to replicate a "bradshaw" style switching amp + effects rig in a small form factor.

My hope was that instead of turning up to practice and gigs with a very heavy tube combo, a large and heavy pedalboard and tons of cables, i could simply grab an Ax8 and a powered monitor and be done with it!! :(
 
the axe fx will morph seamlessly from clean to mean with a dual amp patch but not through patch changes. the ax-8 will not be for you. I have never though heard a amp seamlessly change channels. What amp are you using.
 
That was my though too. Every channel switching amp I've ever used has had some degree of signal drop out. The gap is there to mask the loud pops you'd otherwise get when switching between amp channels with big gain differences. Bradshaw style switching rigs are switching between two amps running in parallel, so you'd need the dual amp blocks of the Axe FX II and scenes to recreate that.

For preset changes though, if you get your delays and reverbs to spill over, the amp drop out can be much less noticeable. You'd basically need two delays and two reverbs in each preset, and then alternate between which ones are active. Preset 1 would use delay 1 and reverb 1, and preset 2 would use delay 2 and reverb 2. If you duplicate your reverb and delay settings between each block instance (delay 1 in preset 1 = delay 1 in preset 2) and set their bypass modes to mute fx in, you'll get spillover when switching back and forth between the two presets. The amp block will reset and drop out for a split second, but the delay and reverb will continue on, masking the gap.
 
I'm actually astonished that this very basic scenario is not possible. I bought a unit last week and I fear I will have to send it back. I really really wanted to love this product.

At first I naturally tried to look how to switch between amp channels (just like in the real world), only to find out that there is only one channel per amp (either clean, drive or lead) .

This then forces you into a quite strange scenario where you have to set up two amps: amp with clean channel on X and amp in drive channel on Y. I'd be willing to accept this if it weren't for the extreme gap when switching (measured around 250ms). This is unfortunately unusable in live situations (my main use case).

I tried another workaround by using a drive amp and reducing its gain to the minimum, however the sound it produces is not usable. It doesn't sound anything like the expected clean channel of such an amp.

The third workaround by using a drive stomp box on a clean amp is really not acceptable. Why such a vast variety of amps if you can't use them? This renders the AX8 completely inflexible. Or as flexible as a mini single channel amp with a drive pedal in front.

I really really hoped I was doing something wrong.
 
mattdweal said:
I'm actually astonished that this very basic scenario is not possible. I bought a unit last week and I fear I will have to send it back. I really really wanted to love this product.

At first I naturally tried to look how to switch between amp channels (just like in the real world), only to find out that there is only one channel per amp (either clean, drive or lead) .

This then forces you into a quite strange scenario where you have to set up two amps: amp with clean channel on X and amp in drive channel on Y. I'd be willing to accept this if it weren't for the extreme gap when switching (measured around 250ms). This is unfortunately unusable in live situations (my main use case).

I tried another workaround by using a drive amp and reducing its gain to the minimum, however the sound it produces is not usable. It doesn't sound anything like the expected clean channel of such an amp.

The third workaround by using a drive stomp box on a clean amp is really not acceptable. Why such a vast variety of amps if you can't use them? This renders the AX8 completely inflexible. Or as flexible as a mini single channel amp with a drive pedal in front.

I really really hoped I was doing something wrong.
Click to expand...
If it's taking 250ms, I think there is something else wrong. Do you have AX8-Edit connected?
 
There is a small delay in scene and preset changes but its fast enough for a lot of big pro acts, as @unix-guy posted if the editor is on that will add a lot of delay as the editor loads the new info. Or there is something else fishy for that big a delay.
 
It is certainly possible to push the gap to 250 ms on AX8. In many cases, it might be faster to switch to a different preset.
 
8 out of 10 new AX8 users who complain about gap while changing scenes or presets are forgetting to turn off up-stroke switching in the menu.

The remaining part reads carefully Smittefar's thread, or searches further, and sometimes finds gems like this one:

Various presets & tricks
 
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I spent multiple days watching tutorials, reading threads (incl. Smittefar's) and this is the best I could achieve:

A (first half) = How it should be
B (second half) = The best AX8 can do





Setup:
  • Scene 1 with clean sound, Scene 2 with drive sound
  • Preset stripped to the bare minimum that the songs require
    • All X and Y states are identical except the amp block
    • No unnecessary scene control switching, no X/Y switching (except amp block)
    • Single cab mode in normal resolution
    • Reverb echo density reduced to 4
    • Up-stroke scene switching disabled
    • AX8-Edit disconnected
    • Max CPU load 63%

"But no one actually uses 2 amps live so your use case is stupid derp burp!"
I don't even wish to use 2 amps. One amp with multiple channels would be good enough.

"But no real gear can switch seamlessly between channels!"
I own a Friedman Small Box 50 and a Framus Cobra and they both. switch. seamlessly.

"But why don't you make use of the flux capacitor to travel back in time and press the switch a bit earlier?"
Really?

"But why don't you just turn off the amp block for the clean sound?"
Are you serious?

"But why don't you just use a clean amp with a drive pedal in front?"
So you're saying I should choose a nice clean amp and compromise on the drive sound just because a song happens to require both?

"But why don't you just use a drive amp with the gain set to 0.00004% for the clean sound?"
So now you're saying I should pick a nice drive amp and compromise on the clean sound.

"But why don't you try to fill in the the gap with extra delay, reverb and plaster?"
I'd prefer if the equipment worked for the song instead of having to change the sound so that it works with the equipment.

"There is no problem, you are the problem!"
Might be. But in all seriousness, switching between a clean and drive channel is probably the most basic use case. It certainly shouldn't require research, workarounds and compromises.

If this is really the best AX8 can do, it's a deal breaker for me. And it really makes me sad.
 
Try to upload the preset - Maybe someone can look into making it switch faster. (I cannot promise to find the time :( )

It sounds to me, like you want to hit the switch exactly on the downbeat at the same time as you start playing. That is probably never going to work, if you x/y switch the amp block. But as I listen to your examples, you could easily switch just an eightnote or even a sixteenth note before the downbeat, and then AX8 would be ready.
 
If this is really the best AX8 can do, it's a deal breaker for me. And it really makes me sad.
Click to expand...

It broke the deal for me 2 years ago, when the AX8 was fresh and I could justify it by saying "they need some time to fix it". I sold the goddamn thing...

It's 2018, and it's still unsolved. I have the second unit, because with great struggle and reluctance I admit, that pros outweigh the cons (con).

I got used to live with that, used clean overdrive pedals for cleans, used scene controllers for gain staging, used shit and plaster to mask the gap.

But FAS can do better than that, I'm sure!

First, please kindly get rid of the fade-in / fade-out thingy - it doesn't have to be that long to reload the patch in order to avoid the pop.
 
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Here is the preset. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could confirm if they experience the same issue.
 

Attachments

  • AX8 - Mind the Gap.syx
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mattdweal said:
Here is the preset. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could confirm if they experience the same issue.
Click to expand...

Yes, same for me; exact example of typical x/y gap. Besides - there is lot of pops caused by modulation blocks (?) Bypass states should be perhaps analyzed - not sure about that :(

I know you have checked every workaround, and I don't want to bother you with another "hey, for live situation you could go with that kind whatever-you-don't-want-to-use solution.." story, but:

a) you just made me dig Citrus Terrier which I didn't ever try, while it seems perfect for clean-to-mean gain staging via scene controllers :)
b) I encourage you to spend some time with @Bakerman 's method, which I'll be putting every effort to squeeze in my scenes, as it is really the most promising one

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/various-presets-tricks.135770/page-2#post-1630770

Yes, there are days when I'm considering trading my AX8 for any AXE FXII, but I love the compact design so much, that I'll do everything to sort the goddamn gap issue. I'd guess that for FAS the compressor-based workaround should be easy to implement - as an option... I keep my fingers crossed...
 
Thank you Ghost_of_Cain for checking it for me!

Sure, the preset is definitely not optimal. I gave up further tweaking once I realized I can't really use it. I took the AX8 to the rehearsal and the guys said it sounds as if I were making mistakes.

The sounds it produces are really great, there is no doubt about that. However, I think I will have to take a closer look at the AXE FX II/III or something completely else.

Thanks again.
 
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