Headphone sound vs live : how to compensate

ethrbunny

ethrbunny

Inspired
Are there any EQing or similar adjustments I can make to a given patch so the speaker and my headphones are more alike? What I hear through the HP (Sennheiser something or other) is (to my ears) always much better sounding than what I get via the ElectroVoice ELX112.

Is this a bad (powered) speaker?
 
No. In a nutshell.

Speakers are different, cabs are different, headphones are WILDLY different. The only way to tweak for this is to understand what your headphones lack or your speaker lacks or vice-versa, and just experiment until you understand what sliders you need to hit to 'approximate' the sound. Either way, it's a crapshoot on whether they will work when you crank it up in the mix.

The ONLY way (IMO) is to tweak at gig volume, THEN tweak during full band practice to get yourself a unique sonic position in the band. (Something that sounds great by itself may or may not sound great in the band.) Some presets I've built during band practice sounded like canned @ss by themselves, but they fit in GREAT when everyone is playing.
 
IMO, the only cans under $150 worth using with the Axe2 is Audio-Technica ATH-M50. Others below $150 don't give you a good reference of the Axe.

With headphones, you are able to hear all the details. However, you miss the realness of pushing air and SPLs in your face that you get with guitar cabs & only the best FRFR monitors (I.e. RCF & CLR).
 
Headphones are headphones; use them for convenience and leisure.

There is no way, IMHO, to use them as reference to create a live tone; no EQ tricks, nothing else. I have a credo that I follow that works for me - practice like you perform. You have to dial in your tones on the sort of system that you will be performing on.

IMHO, YMMV.
 
I've been getting pretty good translation with my Beyerdynamic dt-880 pro, very little to do too get it to work live/in the mix. Tweaking is done relatively loud (not head cracking loud) with the headphones. After I get a preset to basic liking I check it (also with the headphones) playing to a backing track or some other music material and tweak accordingly. Works well since any coloring of the headphones applies to both, guitar and music material (no EQing on the backing/music material).
 
There are no headphones that are perfectly flat and it's almost impossible to find a speaker that is perfectly flat. In other words, what you run the Axe through is going to color the tone (some speakers/headphones color the tone MUCH more than others).

What you need to try to understand is how the headphones/speakers are coloring it. Look for frequency graphs on the Internet. They're not always 100% accurate but they do help. Are certain frequency regions boosted or cut? If so, that's the "coloring". Once you understand which regions of the frequency spectrum are boosted/cut for both your headphones and EVs, you can attempt to use EQ to compensate and get them to translate better to each other. I do this with my headphones and studio monitors. My monitors are fairly flat but my headphones are a little boosted, especially around 2kHz and 8kHz. If I make adjustments on the global EQ while creating presets on my headphones they usually translate well to my monitors.

What I really recommend is that you just create presets strictly for headphone use and presets strictly for use with the EVs. Tweak at the loudest volume you'll be using and in the same space as where you'll be using them.

Some other things to keep in mind:

A lot of the time presets that sound great on cans and don't sound good on speakers have a lot of room level (in the cab block), an enhancer, or studio effects. If you're not running your speakers in stereo make sure your patch doesn't have stereo effects. Turn down the room level and turn the enhancer off.

Also, not sure about the EVs but many PA loudspeakers have switches to boost/cut lows. Check and see how yours is set up. Generally, you're not going to want the lows boosted.
 
In reality you are at the mercy of the sound guy as to what you sound like out front. You can work to provide the best sound you can to them, ultimately they will do what they do. I tweak my sounds through my monitor (k12), which has translated well to my ear monitors. My buds are very flat so I have to add some low end and a little highs to my ear mix. My k12 at the gig is for stage volume and interaction, I don't hear it a bit. I want to be happy what I'm hearing first and foremost, as I want to enjoy the performance.
 
I have the opposite issue. Headphones (and I have some good phones) never sound as good as my CLR, but I have to say with FW11, they do sound damn good. I've never had tones in my phones sound so great. These days I hear my sound through phones and think, "wow, if that's what's going to the PA, I'm a happy and lucky dude." I feel like a happily broken record. I just love FW11 so much.
 
I play mostly at church, and only through headphones at home. We practice through IEMs. I have no idea what I sound like at volume, but people seem to like it. Whatcha gonna do!
 
I've been using the BeyerDynamic DT990 pro openback and have had great results. To be honest the tone is always perfect. my only real issue is the effects mix. For example reverb or delay that sounds prefect through the headphones is usually way too wet through my Yorkville NX55P. modulation effects are fine though and, Otherwise, like I said my tone and volume levels translate perfectly.

Not sure why other here are saying you can't use headphones to reference. I have no problem doing it.
 
I Like playing through speakers, but the AFX sounds better to ME through headphones. I can hear every nuance and it is Tight. When I play out of my Studio Monitors, it gets a little flubby sometimes, BUT, I am sure I just need to tweak the sound for the Monitors and take out some Bass. Anyway, I know what you are asking. I wish I could get the same sound I hear in my headphones, when playing through my speakers.
 
TexasAxeSlinger said:
I Like playing through speakers, but the AFX sounds better to ME through headphones. I can hear every nuance and it is Tight. When I play out of my Studio Monitors, it gets a little flubby sometimes, BUT, I am sure I just need to tweak the sound for the Monitors and take out some Bass. Anyway, I know what you are asking. I wish I could get the same sound I hear in my headphones, when playing through my speakers.
Click to expand...

I ONLY played through headphones when I first got the AFX and tweaked everything for them. First run on my speakers (KrK rockit 8's) it was horrible. Overload of BOOM, especially on palm muted notes, but I wasn't getting that at all through the HP. At first I thought it was the speakers. Then I tried moving the speakers around thinking it was the room set up causing it - didn't change anything. I ended up using a peq with a narrow q value to find the culprit and then I cut that particular freq just enough to even it all out - worked like a charm. Bottom line is, different speaker/headphone combinations are all going to translate differently - some better, some worse. You just have to play around with it and see what works best for your particular set up. If you're switching back and forth between the two you'll most likely need to EQ the same patch differently for each.
 
Here is something to try.

tweak a preset to satisfaction with headphones. If you are using a mono speaker setup, make sure you tweak your headphone mix for mono as well, not stereo. I use the looper for this and add a looper block at the beginning of my chain.

now hook up your speaker.

Then, add a PEQ block at the end of your chain, and move the looper block into the block just before it. Now record your chain, and tweak the PEQ block until it matches what your headphones sound like.

now you should be able to create with your headphones as you like, simply copy that PEQ and always add it to the end of your chain when using the speaker.
 
There is no right way or wrong way.... To get a tone you always needs to start at something... If inspiration hits while you are practicing with HP then this procedure is awesome. i use the DT-880 too with this procedure which is awesome if starting from scratch.

Good advice

Severed said:
Here is something to try.

tweak a preset to satisfaction with headphones. If you are using a mono speaker setup, make sure you tweak your headphone mix for mono as well, not stereo. I use the looper for this and add a looper block at the beginning of my chain.

now hook up your speaker.

Then, add a PEQ block at the end of your chain, and move the looper block into the block just before it. Now record your chain, and tweak the PEQ block until it matches what your headphones sound like.

now you should be able to create with your headphones as you like, simply copy that PEQ and always add it to the end of your chain when using the speaker.
Click to expand...
 
Fairly new AXE FX II owner and have been frustrated with my headphones breaking up on multiple patches that sound great through my 2 QSC K10's. I am using a pair of KRK kns 6400 that were around $100. After reading this thread it sure sounds like the headphones are the main culprit. I am sure there are thread talking brands and price but after some initial searching I have struggle to find any.

So, other than the Beyerdynamic brand what else do folks like? I realize price is all over the board but feel like there must be a good quality that won't break up in the $300-$400 range?

Thanks
 
thio said:
Fairly new AXE FX II owner and have been frustrated with my headphones breaking up on multiple patches that sound great through my 2 QSC K10's. I am using a pair of KRK kns 6400 that were around $100. After reading this thread it sure sounds like the headphones are the main culprit. I am sure there are thread talking brands and price but after some initial searching I have struggle to find any.

So, other than the Beyerdynamic brand what else do folks like? I realize price is all over the board but feel like there must be a good quality that won't break up in the $300-$400 range?
Click to expand...

What do you mean breaking up? Sounds like you either have defective headphones, need to do some serious eq changes, or you're clipping on the output.

I used a pair of KNS 6400 headphones for a while with the Axe. Not great, but sounded decent. I've tried the Beyer DT770. Didn't care for the frequency response. DT880s sound much flatter to me in terms of response and I greatly preferred those to the DT770s. I now use Grado SR60s, which I really like and they're actually fairly cheap. Amazing value for the money. A lot of other people around here seem to like Grados (various models), Senn HD600/HD650, Audeze, and Audio Technica ATH-M50.
 
By breaking up I mean it sounds like it is clipping, artificially distorting, though I'm not showing any red on the Axe. I would hate to make any eq changes as the patches all sound fine when playing through my k10's. The head phones are not bad as I have tried them out on an electronic drum kit I have (definitely seem under powered and after buying a pair of DT880's this weekend I am experiencing a similar issue of low power). At Guitar Center I tried a pair of Sennheiser HD 380's (I believe that was the model) and the DT880's and the Sennheiser's had much more power but the quality seemed better on the DT 880's but the DT880's are quite a bit under powered. When I got the DT 880's home I had to turn up my output on the Axe FX II all the way which doesn't seem to make sense of course. Also tried them on an electronic drum kit and found them very under powered. Wish I understood why some headphones have so much less output than others. If I increase the volume on all my patches that will solve the head phone problem perhaps but then the volume through my K 10's will be too loud. I already have the volume on the back of each K10 only at a 1/4 the way up.

Probably going to return the DT 880's and
 
thio said:
By breaking up I mean it sounds like it is clipping, artificially distorting, though I'm not showing any red on the Axe. I would hate to make any eq changes as the patches all sound fine when playing through my k10's. The head phones are not bad as I have tried them out on an electronic drum kit I have (definitely seem under powered and after buying a psoundf DT880's this weekend I am experiencing a similar issue of low power). At Guitar Center I tried a pair of Sennheiser HD 380's (I believe that was the model) and the DT880's and the Sennheiser's had much more power but the quality seemed better on the DT 880's but the DT880's are quite a bit under powered. When I got the DT 880's home I had to turn up my output on the Axe FX II all the way which doesn't seem to make sense of course. Also tried them on an electronic drum kit and found them very under powered. Wish I understood why some headphones have so much less output than others. If I increase the volume on all my patches that will solve the head phone problem perhaps but then the volume through my K 10's will be too loud. I already have the volume on the back of each K10 only at a 1/4 the way up.

Probably going to return the DT 880's and
Click to expand...

Don't return them, try with a decent headphone amp first.
I'm on a hunt for a new pair of headphones for my axe and have been trying very many different headphones(closed back.open back, in ears, on ears... , different impedances, different brands, from 50-2000$ .

For some of the various headphones the headphone amp in the Axe Fx II is sufficient, for some of the headphones you only need to turn up the output knob to get good results. But for some headphones it sounds shrill and almost distorted and there is no umpf in the tone. It is like there is a lack of bass with lots of distorted hi end. But, if i take the same headphones that sound shrill and distorted and power them with a decent headphone amplifer, then the umpf, bass, bottom end is there and the sound is well balanced without that distorted top end.

I have been reading about headphone amps and some amps are better suited for high impedance headphones(400-600 Ohms) and some for low impedance headphones(10-30 Ohms), but this is not the whole story.

Some headphones require a higher wattage amp to deliver good dynamics.

I've read somewhere here on the forum where Cliff wrote that the headphone amp in the Axe Fx is not suited for too low impedance headphones.

If you try a separate headphone amp then connect it to the line out from the back of the Axe. Try different amps too and different headphones.

Many salesmen have unfortunately no idea what they are selling.
Trust you own ears!

Report back please.

Ps. Check www.headphone.com where you can write and ask for advice regarding a proper amp for your headphones, and requirements for correct amplification.
 
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I don't use the headphone amp on the AxeFXII, I always run through an interface. I have a MOTU right now, but my older interface (Focusrite DSP Pro 24) had a simulator for different monitoring setups. I never thought much of it because in my mind it really comes down to the headphones themselves; I mean how can they compensate for something without knowing what my headphones are doing. But what it could do is give you a reasonable amount of variation to try to find a sweet spot or see if one of those setups creates something that sucks.

But I'm with all the others on here that feel that there are too many variables between headphones and monitors/PA's to try to make a one size fits all generalization. One is strapped to your head and removes the environment and the other is influenced by your surroundings entirely.

I use closed cans so they can be a bit cramped sounding. I've found that increasing the room level in the cab block makes them sound more open. Maybe run that up a bit while dialing them in and then turn it all the way down when getting ready to go into your monitors to see if that makes it closer. Not really sure if it will do anything, but it's worth a try perhaps.
 
thio said:
When I got the DT 880's home I had to turn up my output on the Axe FX II all the way which doesn't seem to make sense of course. Also tried them on an electronic drum kit and found them very under powered. Wish I understood why some headphones have so much less output than others.

Probably going to return the DT 880's and
Click to expand...

I wouldn't return them. Your problem is the headphone impedance. DT 880s are very good headphones to use with the Axe, but the impendance (ohms) is relatively high. The simple solution is to either buy a headphone amp (decent ones can be found fairly cheap) or crank the output knob (the black one on the exterior of the Axe Fx) when using headphones and back it down when using the K10s. If you insist on buying new headphones, make sure the impendance is low (30-60 ohm range).
 
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