Global Scales just don't work? (sound bad, always?)

[javajunkie]

Cliff, I would have thought so too, though the TC Electronics PolyTune seems to do some polyphonic detection. Melodyne's DNA claims to be able to do this too and their application is probably a closer fit to what would be necessary if one were to attempt a polyphonic pitch shifter.

I own Melodyne Editor and it does blow my mind, but the results are still varied depending on the material. We'll have to wait and see how this technology matures. Of course, alternate tuning is still very different and I don't see how that would happen without hex pickups even then.

By the way, if people are interested, I might demo the DNA's ability to edit dry guitar tracks you guys might have.

Yes, I have Melodyne. Extremely cool but as you say you have to tune it to the material AND it most certainly is not real-time.

 

[javajunkie]

Impossible without a hexaphonic pickup. Think about it and it should be obvious why.

Cliff, I would have thought so too, though the TC Electronics PolyTune seems to do some polyphonic detection. Melodyne's DNA claims to be able to do this too and their application is probably a closer fit to what would be necessary if one were to attempt a polyphonic pitch shifter.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12885&p=123776&hilit=+tuner#p123776

Cliff about the polytune

 

[FractalAudio]

Impossible without a hexaphonic pickup. Think about it and it should be obvious why.

Cliff, I would have thought so too, though the TC Electronics PolyTune seems to do some polyphonic detection. Melodyne's DNA claims to be able to do this too and their application is probably a closer fit to what would be necessary if one were to attempt a polyphonic pitch shifter.

Hint: if I play a middle C, for example, what string is that on?

 

[tzrider]

Hint: if I play a middle C, for example, what string is that on?

Does it matter?

 

[FractalAudio]

Hint: if I play a middle C, for example, what string is that on?

Does it matter?

You're kidding right?

 

[tzrider]

Hint: if I play a middle C, for example, what string is that on?

Does it matter?

You're kidding right?

No, I'm not. To be clear, I'm not asking you to do anything here. But for the sake of discussion, the problem as I see it is determining the number of pitches in a chord and isolating them. Perhaps my reference to the TC Electronics tuner got us onto the "which string is it" tangent.

The Melodyne application is probably a better fit for this conversation. If you're not familiar with it, this video gives an overview of the functionality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFCjv4_jqAY

Other users on the forum may be able to clarify what one has to tell the software before it can perform the analysis, but it seems that it can break out individual pitches from a chord. It doesn't sound like this software needs to know which string a given pitch is played on. Does anyone who has the software know?

 

[javajunkie]

Melodyne gets the fundamental then tries to guess the overtones (it will detect many overtones as pitches depending on your sensitivity settings and musical content), you can look at the file like you would in a piano roll editor and tell it which ones are overtones. It will then pitch shift those items with the pitches that should be associated w/ the overtones. It takes a ton of processing power to get done and even so it takes several seconds( or even minutes depending on the length of file) to render the detection.

 

[Bakerman]

Hint: if I play a middle C, for example, what string is that on?

Does it matter?

Yes, because simulating an alternate tuning requires different shifts for each string. If you're in standard and trying to simulate open D how will something know whether to shift an incoming middle C down a whole step, half step or not at all?

 

[Beefcake]

You're kidding right?

No, I'm not. To be clear, I'm not asking you to do anything here. But for the sake of discussion, the problem as I see it is determining the number of pitches in a chord and isolating them. Perhaps my reference to the TC Electronics tuner got us onto the "which string is it" tangent.

I think you're missing something:

Impossible without a hexaphonic pickup. Think about it and it should be obvious why.

Cliff, I would have thought so too, though the TC Electronics PolyTune seems to do some polyphonic detection. Melodyne's DNA claims to be able to do this too and their application is probably a closer fit to what would be necessary if one were to attempt a polyphonic pitch shifter.

As far as I can tell Cliff was referring to alternative tuning, not polyphonic pitch shifting. For the former, knowing which string does what is the whole point.

 

[tzrider]

As far as I can tell Cliff was referring to alternative tuning, not polyphonic pitch shifting. For the former, knowing which string does what is the whole point.

Yes, if that's what he was addressing, you're right. The post I had in mind in the discussion was this one:

I cannot get the custom scales to work while playing chords (polyphony).
The tracking totally falls apart, and I've tried to adjust glide and tracking with no improvements.

jroy has also said some things about alternate tunings and it may well be that I'm not clear on what he is really trying to solve.

 

[jroy]

You guys have answered all my questions and options.
Much appreciated. I had not tried the scales until recently, so I misunderstood their purpose.
Also, I never knew that hexaphonic pickups even existed until this post.
I'm good-I understand now.

Thanks

 

[TimmyM]

Hi John Roy,

If you didn't know about hexaphonic pickups, then you owe it to yourself to check out http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=2 and http://www.axon-technologies.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1&menu=101 as well as this exciting little development - http://www.rackvax.com/

TimmyM

 

[javajunkie]

Hi John Roy,

If you didn't know about hexaphonic pickups, then you owe it to yourself to check out http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=2 and http://www.axon-technologies.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1&menu=101 as well as this exciting little development - http://www.rackvax.com/

TimmyM

BTW, hexaphonic pickups are not the only thing that works. Piezo's work as well. The variax, Godin's, Gibson Robot II & III, and several other guitars use the piezo.

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

Hi John Roy,

If you didn't know about hexaphonic pickups, then you owe it to yourself to check out http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=2 and http://www.axon-technologies.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1&menu=101 as well as this exciting little development - http://www.rackvax.com/

TimmyM

BTW, hexaphonic pickups are not the only thing that works. Piezo's work as well. The variax, Godin's, Gibson Robot II & III, and several other guitars use the piezo.

What sort of output is required to make use of the piezo?

 

[TimmyM]

What sort of output is required to make use of the piezo?

Usually a 13 pin plug is needed as an out from these pickups. It varies from system to system. Plus remember it is not your average piezo acoustic pickup. It is often a piezo or two, per string, individually sent down the cable.

In attempts to reduce physical external clutter, some systems allow you to plug your normal electgric magnetic pickups into the piezo hexaphonic pickup system. The signal is then split at the other end so you can 'blend' the two, while only running one cable from the guitar to the unit. IMHO, this doesn't work very well, as it appears to affect the tone of the magnetic pickups too much for my liking.

TimmyM

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

What sort of output is required to make use of the piezo?

Usually a 13 pin plug is needed as an out from these pickups. It varies from system to system. Plus remember it is not your average piezo acoustic pickup. It is often a piezo or two, per string, individually sent down the cable.

In attempts to reduce physical external clutter, some systems allow you to plug your normal electgric magnetic pickups into the piezo hexaphonic pickup system. The signal is then split at the other end so you can 'blend' the two, while only running one cable from the guitar to the unit. IMHO, this doesn't work very well, as it appears to affect the tone of the magnetic pickups too much for my liking.

TimmyM

Yeah, I was specifically contemplating something like a Tom Anderson with the Fishman Power Bridge. Do you know if that sort of configuration would work? I haven't asked Tom if they can do the 13 pin output.

 

[TimmyM]

Sorry to the OP for the hijack...

@Reddy... check the Graphtech Ghost for your Tom Anderson. Better than the powerbridge IMHO. GHOST can do hexaphonic output and acoustic piezo output at the same time.

TimmyM

 

[porieux]

Hi John Roy,

If you didn't know about hexaphonic pickups, then you owe it to yourself to check out http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=2 and http://www.axon-technologies.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1&menu=101 as well as this exciting little development - http://www.rackvax.com/

TimmyM

BTW, hexaphonic pickups are not the only thing that works. Piezo's work as well. The variax, Godin's, Gibson Robot II & III, and several other guitars use the piezo.

Those would be hexaphonic piezo's

 

[stef herbuel]

i use hexaphonic pickup on all my guitars (gk3) and use a vg99 for virtual tuning and virtual guitar , and for "synth" sound and special sound (oud, sitra etc) , and it works really great.
VG99 + Axe-fx = killer association.

 

[DNW]

Hi John Roy,

If you didn't know about hexaphonic pickups, then you owe it to yourself to check out http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=2 and http://www.axon-technologies.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1&menu=101 as well as this exciting little development - http://www.rackvax.com/

TimmyM

BTW, hexaphonic pickups are not the only thing that works. Piezo's work as well. The variax, Godin's, Gibson Robot II & III, and several other guitars use the piezo.

Had never really considered it before now, but maybe you could tell me if you think this is possible. I've got an Ibanez RG2127X, which has the piezo loaded Double Edge 7 bridge on it, i.e. piezos in each saddle. Would there be a way to jig it up so that I can just add MIDI functionality on top of the normal psuedo-acoustic piezo sound? Cram some fancy off-the-shelf MIDI convertery thingy into the control cavity that'll let me just take those signals and send it out through a newly added output?

I've been curious about MIDI for guitar for a while, but seeing as 99% of my playing is done on 7-strings, and none of the Roland style pickups I've seen seem to come in a 7-string version, I've always kinda just brushed it off. I saw that GraphTech (I think it is) make their own piezo loaded Floyd now, but last I remember that was rather expensive. Plus, Lo-Pro route =/= OFR route.

http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12885&p=123776&hilit=+tuner#p123776" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cliff about the polytune

I love this. Everyone's been making such a big deal about the revolutionary Polytune, and Cliff's just like, "Yeah, I did that about a year ago. Meh." :lol: