Getting that warmth sound.....

[dsouza]

Has anyone heard a tube Vox ac30tb cooking at max volume? Did you also have the pleasure of hearing an frfr speaker system like the Redsound Eli’s 8’s at volume 8-10?

I have had the pleasure of hearing an ac30 tube amp cranked but not my Eli’s 8’s at max.

But I will tell you this, when I run a tube vox ac10 at volume 3 gain at 9-10 am in my small studio room it sounds like pure saturated warmth and richness whereas my Eli’s 8 on vol 3 sounds the same as vol 1 just louder. And even then when I say louder I mean the sound fills more space in the air.

Now there is another issue , sound coming out of a tube amp speaker cone and the sound coming out of an frfr unit filling the room.

It could very well be the Elis 8’s sound better when volume is taken to 8 or so but I’ve never had the pleasure to test that. I live in a condo and I’m not about to get a second eviction notice figuring it out.

Also over the internet on our computers one can barely tell the difference between an Elis 8 frfr and a cranked amp. Live in person is a different story.

 

[dr bonkers]

How do you get that warmth sound, like that kinda intimate feel you get when you run a tube amp cooking in a coffee house with the crowd gathering?

I've never been in a coffeehouse in the US where management allowed a tube amp to be turned up to cooking level.

If you want the sound of that room, build yourself that room, place your monitoring in the same position, make sure you are listening at the same volume (use an SPL meter at both locations), and turn the virtual knobs until you have your sound.

If it's still sounding "cold" despite twirling knobs and all that, then you are using the wrong ir.

Tube amps sound different from day to day. They are the antithesis of consistency.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

But I will tell you this, when I run a tube vox ac10 at volume 3 gain at 9-10 am in my small studio room it sounds like pure saturated warmth and richness whereas my Eli’s 8 on vol 3 sounds the same as vol 1 just louder. And even then when I say louder I mean the sound fills more space in the air.

This is comparing apples and coconuts, not even apples and oranges.

The Vox’s circuits behave differently when you adjust the volume controls. The modeler has more controls and some of them don’t map directly to controls on the Vox so turning what appears to be the same control might not be affecting the modeled circuitry in the same way. “Why” is a different topic but it’s important to know that that’s a thing.

“Understanding All the Different Gain Controls” is a bit dated but is a good start. The Amp block section in the Blocks guide would be more current and will help, as will the Amp block page in the Wiki and Yek’s Amp write ups. “Setting the Master Volume” might help too.

In various places Cliff talks about the design choices and they make sense to me, but the result is sometimes we need to make use of more than one control to tell the model how to behave like a particular instance of a particular amp. The basic controls get close but can’t cover every possible situation.

 

[WKSmith]

putting all silliness aside, since you asked humbly and I believe with a genuine tone question... I would consider perhaps:

..Buying or borrowing 2 inexpensive things:
A sm57 mic, and a SPL meter. There is a free NIOSH SPL meter app too.

Mic up the ac10 and put it in a closet.
Create a vox(ish) patch on the fractal with just an amp and cab (IR) . Capture a reading of the SPL .

Record a track with the ac10 mic'd up while listening through decent phones or monitors.

Make the fractal preset sound exactly like the track monitoring with good phones or studio monitors. Maybe try the ac15 . Use a similar IR as the speaker in the ac10 with a 57 mic.

Play the preset through the Elis 8s (at the same SPL !) and play through the ac10 (in the same room at the same SPL)
If they are not remarkably similar, use global eq sparingly to make the elis 8s sound like the ac10 ... (without adjusting the main out eq )
This is much easier using a looper to play the same riff over and over.


This will make you sell tube amps, like many of us have.

The struggle you have is common. Amp in the room is not the same as mic'd up amp in the PA or studio.

With some patience and skill, you can have both at the same time.

 

[RevDrucifer]

 

[Piing]

Also over the internet on our computers one can barely tell the difference between an Elis 8 frfr and a cranked amp. Live in person is a different story.

And that sentence right there, if well understood, should be the end of this discussion.

Otherwise, just apply the infallible method suggested by @RevDrucifer

 

[Rex Rox]

@dsouza: End result: If you follow the instructions in my post above - you will achieve much more warmth according to most folks definitions of "warmth". Many of the other posts here (@Greg Ferguson, @marsonic, ...) are just bloviating to sound self important without providing an answer.

Try it - you will like it. If not report back and tell me I'm full of brown smelly stuff. And if I am listen to one of them.

 

[Rex Rox]

I think the OP needs volume!
I use my axe-fx with FRFRF and poweramp+real cabinets. It has to be turned up to 80dB+ the get that warmth.

You should be able to easily achieve what most people consider "warmth" at bedroom volume with decent studio reference monitors. Translating that to stage volume (thru FRFRs and FOH) should only involve Global EQ tweaks.

It works for me all day (and night) long.

 

[marsonic]

Also over the internet on our computers one can barely tell the difference between an Elis 8 frfr and a cranked amp. Live in person is a different story.

Well...the honest difference for me (and, yes, I've played a '60s ac30 cranked...there are some really nice shops not far from me) is that I'd only ever even think about playing an original AC30 with earplugs. Unless I'm mistaken, that 30w rating coincides with 1% THD, which is when the pair of greenbacks is putting out close to 110dB from where I typically stand playing an amp.

The cranked sound is even louder considering that AC30s start breaking up really early on the knob and well below where they sound best (to me)...and that distortion isn't a simple "it doesn't get any louder, it just gets more distorted" kind of thing. It still gets louder, just not as quickly.

With good in-ears or good hi-fi or monitor style speakers, I can get a guitar sound that I like, including one based on an AC30 if I wanted to, out of my fractal at ~85dB, which sounds and feels plenty loud enough to be fun in many situations.

Out performing...the AC30 is still a bit loud anywhere I'm halfway likely to play. But, if it's not viable, an AC15 is. The question is whether I would prefer playing it with earplugs or playing my fractal with IEMs. Because I want to still be able to hear what a guitar sounds like in another 20 years.

I'd honestly rather listen to the IEMs.

Electric guitars sound fun at 80-90dB. The problem is that guitar amps generally don't sound good until they're over 110.

Or the ones I tend to like don't.

 

[dsouza]

Well...the honest difference for me (and, yes, I've played a '60s ac30 cranked...there are some really nice shops not far from me) is that I'd only ever even think about playing an original AC30 with earplugs. Unless I'm mistaken, that 30w rating coincides with 1% THD, which is when the pair of greenbacks is putting out close to 110dB from where I typically stand playing an amp.

The cranked sound is even louder considering that AC30s start breaking up really early on the knob and well below where they sound best (to me)...and that distortion isn't a simple "it doesn't get any louder, it just gets more distorted" kind of thing. It still gets louder, just not as quickly.

With good in-ears or good hi-fi or monitor style speakers, I can get a guitar sound that I like, including one based on an AC30 if I wanted to, out of my fractal at ~85dB, which sounds and feels plenty loud enough to be fun in many situations.

Out performing...the AC30 is still a bit loud anywhere I'm halfway likely to play. But, if it's not viable, an AC15 is. The question is whether I would prefer playing it with earplugs or playing my fractal with IEMs. Because I want to still be able to hear what a guitar sounds like in another 20 years.

I'd honestly rather listen to the IEMs.

Electric guitars sound fun at 80-90dB. The problem is that guitar amps generally don't sound good until they're over 110.

Or the ones I tend to like don't.

Well the Vox Ac10 tube AMP sounds good even at volume 11 am and gain at 10 am. I have tried it in a small place like Long and McQuade guitar centre and the sound was nice and bass and full with lots of bottom end and warmth. Now what DB level do you think it was putting out?

In the end I don't think I could compare an AC10 with guitar to my Elis 8 , Ax8, and multiple guitars UNLESS I was using a LOADED pedalboard. In any other case it is an unfair comparison. However, I will tell you from practical experience having just a few knobs on the Ac10 (I think there are 5 or 6) it's so easy to manipulate it to get good effect at any volume in most venues in mere SECONDS.

When pressed for time setting up, and pressed to carry gear that doesn't cost that much to cart around (i.e. no one brings a 12k FAS system out to a $300 CAD gig) and has less chance of being stolen or damaged the AMP soluton is a great one.

I love my FAS but I don't see how it would hurt me to add a real valve AMP to my collection. It just seems more versatile for many situations.

 

[pauly]

Just buy an FM3, 9, or axe fx 3.

 

[Rex Rox]

Well the Vox Ac10 tube AMP sounds good even at volume 11 am and gain at 10 am. I have tried it in a small place like Long and McQuade guitar centre and the sound was nice and bass and full with lots of bottom end and warmth. Now what DB level do you think it was putting out?

In the end I don't think I could compare an AC10 with guitar to my Elis 8 , Ax8, and multiple guitars UNLESS I was using a LOADED pedalboard. In any other case it is an unfair comparison. However, I will tell you from practical experience having just a few knobs on the Ac10 (I think there are 5 or 6) it's so easy to manipulate it to get good effect at any volume in most venues in mere SECONDS.

When pressed for time setting up, and pressed to carry gear that doesn't cost that much to cart around (i.e. no one brings a 12k FAS system out to a $300 CAD gig) and has less chance of being stolen or damaged the AMP soluton is a great one.

I love my FAS but I don't see how it would hurt me to add a real valve AMP to my collection. It just seems more versatile for many situations.

I'm not sure why you settled on an AC10. Vox amps are known for being very bright (which is usually the opposite of warm). Also the AC10 does not have a proper effects loop which would disqualify it for me.

In that category of small combo ($500-$600 usd) I would spend a little more and go with a Supro Delta King 12. It is a much more versatile amp with a line out (can use as a psuedo effects loop) and a real spring reverb. It's only about 100 bucks more - but it is probably twice the amp compared to an AC10. I would certainly play one before buying an AC10.

https://www.suprousa.com/amplifiers/delta-king-12/

 

[Tonedeaf]

The thing I always do is turn down the HF is the Cab Block from the default 20K a bunch. I got that from a very respected guitarist and Fractal user whose name I forget because I'm old and senile.

It was Tom Quayle. Seems I have a few brain cells left

 

[dsouza]

It was Tom Quayle. Seems I have a few brain cells left

I have all of Tom Quayle's instructionals. Great player and teacher. Well spoken too. Plays great rock and legato riffs and I believe he delved into fusion too.