Gain trouble

T

torkolort

Inspired
Hi,

When I play it feels like the volume knob on the guitar is lowered. I constantly feel like I need more gain, because it feels like the notes aren't coming through especially on the higher register.

Recorded a little sample using the first stock preset (Studio Lead) which has the USA Lead 2. Everything is untouched, but I enabled the boost. Drive is on 7.09 and master vol on 6.69. Without the boost, it was almost impossible to play. I didn't bother to use any of my own presets, as this implies more or less for all my own presets as well as the stocks and it's easier this way if someone wants to try it themselves and compare...

The guitar is a Music Man JP6 with dimarzio humbuckers but I'm actually not sure which exact humbuckers it is. I haven't changed pickups since I bought it. Regardless, they shouldn't be that low power?

Yes it's VERY sloppy, I sound unfairly horrible. I'm not saying I play great, but I'm not that bad...I have to pick every note real hard or it doesn't let the tone in, and it just sounds so tame. Sweeping is just plain impossible. Adding a drive block, which I have on most of my other presets, slightly helps, but then the clarity gets even worse. Do you hear what I'm talking about?

http://www.4shared.com/audio/KSkq014w/Lead_test.html

Appreciate your input.

edit: On the guitar I have both volume and tone control on max, and the input level on the axe-fx at about 2 o'clock
 
Have you ever played a real Mark IV/Triaxis? Master level at 6.69 would kill everyone in Norway. :p

Just compare your settings to let's say Petrucci. The way he used the Mark IV/Mark V you should use the USA LEAD 1. And he has master level at 3 at most. He had it around 2 in the recordings of Systematic Chaos. That should help you quite a bit. And Mark IV does not need a boost pedal. :) Some people use drive pedals with the RHY2 channel to give them another high gain channel.
 
Thanks,

I haven't played a real Mark IV. Only real amp I've had was a Nomad 55, which wasn't the right thing for me obv.
I do use the Usa Lead 1 too, and I usually have the master vol around 3, but the original problem remains. Maybe it's something to be solved with EQing, and I've experimentet a lot with both parametric and graphic, but I find it hard to adjust to good sounding levels (because I'm just not good at it). If I get a good rhythm sound, then it's useless for lead and vice verca. Do you know if this could be pick-up related? I only have this guitar, and I've tried with a ESP Ltd with duncan pickups, which was just far worse :) What I also feel is missing is that screaming type of sound, on the high gain lead tones like f.ex this song by Paul Gilbert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES1RypBww_g
 
Are you comparing your tone to a previous experience with a real tube amp or to an artist's pro recording?

Your recording doesn't sound that bad. In any case, it doesn't sound like gain is missing.
 
I guess it's both pro recordings, live sounds and other recordings on this forum. Might be partly because of low-volume playing, all though I play through an Atomic FR which I think should handle that pretty well. Can't crank it :(
 
Sounds plenty gainy to me. More gain than I use with my USA Lead 2 patch.

Note, with the Mark series models, the tonestack is pre-gain, so that will also effect how much gain you have in the sound as well as change the character of the tone.


What were you playing through before the Axe-FX? :|
 
Sounds like it might be a noise gate issue. Go to the gate and turn it all the way off (ie no threshold) and see if the program persists.
 
I actually thought it could be related to the noise gate but turning it completely off doesn't help.
I realize that it might not sound like it lacks gain, it's more the feeling when I play. It does sound like it has plenty of gain, but it doesn't feel like it when playing. Like if I was playing outside in -10 degrees celcius and couldn't move my fingers. I don't how else to describe it.

As I mentioned, the only real amp I've had was a Nomad 55. I had a Pod XT Live before the axe, only used it with headphones. I was at my parents' place a while ago and played on my brother's gear, which is just a cheap BC Rich guitar and a Roland amp. Somehow it was easier to play. I just can't describe what it is, but the notes are coming through much more clearly and with less effort. Not that it sounds better than the axe, because it obv doesn't. Just has to be something I do wrong, or my pickups are bad or anything. baaaaaah I guess you'd have to try it in order to understand my issue. I'm going to take my whole gear to a friend of mine who's a newly educated sound engineer, but he doesn't come home before January and I'm so eager to find out :twisted:
 
Try another guitar... Seems odd that a Music Man would play harder than a BC Rich, but who knows. Easiest guitar I ever played was a Blade but consistently the MusicMans always played almost as easily.

My Axe-FX plays easier than anything I ever had before.
 
I have a jp6 that is very weak compared to my other guitars. Even a telecaster with single coils has more balls. I suspect the circuit board in the guitar that combines the piezo signal is sucking tone.
 
I just played my JP6 through the same patch. There was PLENTY of gain.

The JP6 pickups have come with different pickups over the years are they have always been high output.

If your JP6 has the optional piezo, try plugging into the lower jack on the guitar. This jack bypasses the piezo and active electronics. If that solves your problem you need a new battery to use the upper piezo/active output jack.
 
torkolort said:
As I mentioned, the only real amp I've had was a Nomad 55. I had a Pod XT Live before the axe, only used it with headphones. I was at my parents' place a while ago and played on my brother's gear, which is just a cheap BC Rich guitar and a Roland amp. Somehow it was easier to play. I just can't describe what it is, but the notes are coming through much more clearly and with less effort. Not that it sounds better than the axe, because it obv doesn't.
Click to expand...

I think you have pretty much described what you are looking for. You have gotten used to playing with a super-compressed dynamics-squashing device, which was probably tweaked to have a lot of gain and sustain thus increasing the compression. While that can be good in some cases, it definitely hides some mistakes and makes playing easier but at the same time it blurrs out everything you play and makes it sound mushy and undefined, even if you don't hear while you are playing. It also kills the dynamics in your playing.

I'm sure many of your favorite artists play with much less gain than you think, and when you listen to them and hear the clarity and every single note pops out, it is because of their clean playing, not gain.

BTW, if you really like the super-easy compressed tone, you can also do it with the axefx. Just set up some sort of tubescreamer drive in front of the amp, level to 10, drive low, and set the gain in the amp block pretty high. Then you will have people complaining about too much gain though :lol: .
 
torkolort said:
I only have this guitar, and I've tried with a ESP Ltd with duncan pickups, which was just far worse :) What I also feel is missing is that screaming type of sound, on the high gain lead tones like f.ex this song by Paul Gilbert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES1RypBww_g
Click to expand...

You should try with my patch, change the PEQ as explained in the 2nd post, then choose the USA RHY 2 and push the drive .. can you nail it this way ?

http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=22178

(edit - if you attack with the side of the pick like Paul, try the BROWN type amp as well)
 
torkolort said:
Hi,

When I play it feels like the volume knob on the guitar is lowered. I constantly feel like I need more gain, because it feels like the notes aren't coming through especially on the higher register.

Recorded a little sample using the first stock preset (Studio Lead) which has the USA Lead 2. Everything is untouched, but I enabled the boost. Drive is on 7.09 and master vol on 6.69. Without the boost, it was almost impossible to play. I didn't bother to use any of my own presets, as this implies more or less for all my own presets as well as the stocks and it's easier this way if someone wants to try it themselves and compare...

The guitar is a Music Man JP6 with dimarzio humbuckers but I'm actually not sure which exact humbuckers it is. I haven't changed pickups since I bought it. Regardless, they shouldn't be that low power?

Yes it's VERY sloppy, I sound unfairly horrible. I'm not saying I play great, but I'm not that bad...I have to pick every note real hard or it doesn't let the tone in, and it just sounds so tame. Sweeping is just plain impossible. Adding a drive block, which I have on most of my other presets, slightly helps, but then the clarity gets even worse. Do you hear what I'm talking about?

http://www.4shared.com/audio/KSkq014w/Lead_test.html

Appreciate your input.

edit: On the guitar I have both volume and tone control on max, and the input level on the axe-fx at about 2 o'clock
Click to expand...

If you're using stock presets and you've done any firmware updates since you bought your Axe you should do the Updfate Presets command/routine in the Utility menu.

Smart thing to do is to not use the stock presets.
Roll your own.
The stock presets kinda suck.

A Master level of 6.69 is way too high for a Mesa style amp.
That's why your tone is crapping out all over the place.
Mesa-style overdrive, unless we're talking about an amp like the Lonestar - which is made for power tube overdrive as desired, is all mostly done in the preamp usually.
First - Use the Type parameter to briefly switch to a different Amp Type and then come back to the Amp Type you want to work with. That will load the default Advanced Amp Parameters for that Amp Type.
Then lower the Master parameter to about 2.5 and re-tweak the tone controls in the preset.
If you can't get enough gain by just cranking the Drive parameter then use the Boost switch (under the Type parameter).
If that's still not enough gain for you, then you should probably be using a different Amp Type (hard to believe that's not enough gain though), or you could stick a Drive Block in front of the Amp Block.

Also...
Make sure you've adjusted the Axe's Input Level knob properly.
If it's too low you'll never get enough gain.
 
First place to start is the Input pot, get it to just light up the Red Led when you strum hardest with guitar vol pot on full.
 
torkolort said:
Might be partly because of low-volume playing...:(
Click to expand...

It's possible that low-volume playing is the entire cause of the problem. The Axe-FX, like any other guitar rig, becomes entirely different at gig levels. Notes bloom more richly, your tone changes, you get more dymanics from a light touch on the strings, and the rig becomes much more responsive and easier to play.

The gain of your MP3 samples sounds fine to my ears. Take your rig somewhere that allows you to crank the volume, and see if that fixes your problem.
 
It might be the model's natural compression that you don't like?

Try raising the Damp control?

Try minimizing the Sag control (don't go all the way down to "0")

Try moving the B+ Cap control around some?

Do these tests at gig volume!

Good luck...
 
joegold said:
A Master level of 6.69 is way too high for a Mesa style amp.
That's why your tone is crapping out all over the place.
Mesa-style overdrive, unless we're talking about an amp like the Lonestar - which is made for power tube overdrive as desired, is all mostly done in the preamp usually.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Mr.Fractal confirmed that.
But what's confusing here, for new users at least, is that a lot of the USA Lead 1/2 factory presets have MV at 6 or 7 ... :?

Dinkledorf said:
First place to start is the Input pot, get it to just light up the Red Led when you strum hardest with guitar vol pot on full.
Click to expand...

+1
 
Thanks a lot for your help guys. Been experimenting quite a bit now, and I think it's getting better, though I may also been overestimating how much ease of play is achievable, at least for low volume playing. :shock:

Regarding the master vol, one patch I've been using a lot was posted in this thread last summer. Patch is here: http://www.box.net/shared/vqtjbh2mny

If you look at the patch he has the master vol all the way at 10, but the tone is real close to Petrucci's. He used the IIC+ amp sim though, but I would've thought they were pretty similar...
 
too_much_power said:
I think you have pretty much described what you are looking for. You have gotten used to playing with a super-compressed dynamics-squashing device, which was probably tweaked to have a lot of gain and sustain thus increasing the compression. While that can be good in some cases, it definitely hides some mistakes and makes playing easier but at the same time it blurrs out everything you play and makes it sound mushy and undefined, even if you don't hear while you are playing. It also kills the dynamics in your playing.

I'm sure many of your favorite artists play with much less gain than you think, and when you listen to them and hear the clarity and every single note pops out, it is because of their clean playing, not gain.

BTW, if you really like the super-easy compressed tone, you can also do it with the axefx. Just set up some sort of tubescreamer drive in front of the amp, level to 10, drive low, and set the gain in the amp block pretty high. Then you will have people complaining about too much gain though :lol: .
Click to expand...

Pretty much this.

I generally pick pretty hard when I'm playing my wanky leads or whatever, but that's what gets the sound I like. Backing off on the pick attack will get me a different sound if I want it. That's what comes with having a tube amp-like responsiveness. As TMP said, if you want that more compressed, "everything you play comes out sounding even regardless of how you play it" thing, it's certainly possible in the Axe. Drive block, compressor, filter/EQ, whatever, out the front of the amp to even out the levels or add another clipping stage / drive the amp block harder. I've got one patch that I'm recording with at the moment that's the fuzz face into a dirty Shiva LD. Not much responsiveness to be found anywhere there. :lol:


The other thing is, what are you playing your Axe-FX through? I use mine just through monitors at my computer, but for it to "feel" right I need a decent bit of volume. Not "pissing off the neighbours" volume or anything, but if it's way down low it just doesn't feel or sound quite right.


joegold said:
A Master level of 6.69 is way too high for a Mesa style amp.
That's why your tone is crapping out all over the place.
Mesa-style overdrive, unless we're talking about an amp like the Lonestar - which is made for power tube overdrive as desired, is all mostly done in the preamp usually.
Click to expand...

I have to say, I disagree with this. As a general rule, yeah ok. But as far as I can recall, all my Mesa patches in the Axe (typically USA LD2, Mark IIC+, or Recto Orange) all have fairly low preamp gain settings and fairly high master volume settings. It gives you a different sound, and changes the feel. I prefer to have the MV up high as it tends to smooth out the sound a bit, plus it loosens up the feel a bit. I'm not particularly into those razor sharp metal tones or anything.

Of course, having your real-life Recto up at 8 or whatever on the MV would be offensive in just about any situation, but then, we don't have to deal with that. ;)
 
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