G3 Dumble and Cliff's Impression

Chronos

Chronos

Experienced
This is one amp most of us won't have the privilege of hearing or playing on in our lifetime, so it's hard to ask anyone else of their impression besides the big kahuna himself.

Back during some older firmware long ago in the year 2013 Cliff mentioned how there was something special about a real Dumble. Not wanting to misquote based on memory I dug it up...
fractalaudio said:
I hate to admit it but there is something special about a real Dumble. I don't know what it is but there is something in the voicing. The various clones I have are cool and have their own thing going but they don't sound like the Dumble. Hard amp to play though. Very unforgiving but tremendous clarity.
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My question is now with G3 upon us if that magic has been captured from the Dumble, and if that sweet something all the other clones can't manage to claim is found in the Dumble model that's in the Axe-Fx.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting his initial meaning, but after I first read that I had always wondered if the Dumble's special sekret sawse had been at the time also hard to place in the modeling. Maybe I'm wrong on that front, but I'm still curious to hear his impression having the modeling improvements come this far, and likely never going to have the chance to compare myself. It's a very curious amp because of that.

Just in case: not looking to get off topic about whether it matters. It's not a thread about it being a big deal on how close it is or isn't, but looking for some honest comparison talks for anyone whose curious and will also never get the chance to play one IRL.
 
I'd love to hear from Cliff on this, too. I built and tweaked for a year my own ODS non-HRM. Love that amp. I have played (briefly and once) RFs blonde ODS (#183 I think) and it seemed really special, but I was playing an unfamiliar guitar so who knows where the mojo was coming from? But based on the price tag alone...

Even after 18B, I've had to tweak my Ford model on the AFX quite a bit to get the same squishy but clear sound out of the model that I hear out of a good recording, but it lacks the same bloom. Close, but...there's some odd little feedback loop that you can dial in by running some of the preamp tube leads parallel to one another, and between that and getting the phase inverter balanced just so, there's a neat bloom that just happens even at low volumes on the real amp.

18B seemed to solidify the harmonic relationship of double stops and chords in that amp for me, though. Much closer to what I hear in my amp. Hit a 1-5 double stop that's in tune, and you hear a lot more of the major 3 than you used to, even on high strings.

I still feel like my main obstacle is the cabinet IRs; I'm using OH mixes now, and the 4x12 IRs sound good, but I have yet to hear a really great 2x12 open back IR with the G12-65 gnarl to it and the lack of boxiness.
 
I have never heard a Dumble in person. I did love the Dumble model on my old Vox Valvtronix 100VTX. I haven't been able to tweak it to my liking on the axe fx2 - i also haven't spent much time trying. Of course the real Dumbles are mythic amps and Howard Dumble is an eccentric psycho, wackjob, genius by all accounts.
 
MesaGuitarGuy said:
I wonder how well the AXE Tucana compares to the real one?
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It must be pretty darn close since Cliff is in close contact (even maybe good buddy) with Alan and Alan has approved (and lent Cliff his amps to model) the CA models in the Axe FX. As well, Alan uses the Axe Fx regularly and I would think he must have very discriminating ears, same goes for Cliff...
 
DukeOfPrunes said:
It must be pretty darn close since Cliff is in close contact (even maybe good buddy) with Alan and Alan has approved (and lent Cliff his amps to model) the CA models in the Axe FX. As well, Alan uses the Axe Fx regularly and I would think he must have very discriminating ears, same goes for Cliff...
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I believe Cliff stated in another thread that he owns the Tucana he modelled.
I had asked if Cliff was modelling a Tucana that belongs to a friend of mine, and he responded that he had his own.
That being said - my friend's Tucana is bad ass.
He has both the Tucana and Triptik.....they're both killer amps.
Actually, he has a Triptik combo amp as well that is the best combo I've ever heard.
 
Robboman said:
Cliff also said this about the Carol Ann Tucana:
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I think it depends on what you're after. "The" Dumble tone* is kind of distinct, and it's pretty different from what I hear out of the Tucana. The fact that Cliff also mentioned Trainwreck in the same sentence makes me think he is more stating a preference for an amp and tone type than saying that the Tucana is a superlative example of a Dumble-style amp. If the model is representative, the Tucana sounds pretty different from a Dumble tone.

*since Dumble often made amps to individual tastes, and his designs evolved, there are pretty substantial differences even just within his ODS family, from what I understand. But to my ear, you can usually hear something distinct in the sound and feel that makes you say "Dumbleish."
 
Great info Tex Axe - thanks for taking the time to put that together and present it so well
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Imagine if it had been one single paragraph or all caps!
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DukeOfPrunes said:
It must be pretty darn close since Cliff is in close contact (even maybe good buddy) with Alan and Alan has approved (and lent Cliff his amps to model) the CA models in the Axe FX. As well, Alan uses the Axe Fx regularly and I would think he must have very discriminating ears, same goes for Cliff...
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See, this doesn't make any sense to me. Why would an amp maker want to have a different manufacturer of an amp modeler, exactly cloning his amp to a T? Wouldn't that be bad for business? That's why I am inclined to think that these type of deals are probably done where it leaves out somethings to where you'd still want to buy the real deal because the Axe-Fx model doesn't capture everything that the physical amp does. If I was an amp builder and that was my paying my bills, I sure as heck wouldn't want anyone stealing ANY business from me, especially if I was a small brand-name.
 
Lionheart said:
See, this doesn't make any sense to me. Why would an amp maker want to have a different manufacturer of an amp modeler, exactly cloning his amp to a T? Wouldn't that be bad for business? That's why I am inclined to think that these type of deals are probably done where it leaves out somethings to where you'd still want to buy the real deal because the Axe-Fx model doesn't capture everything that the physical amp does. If I was an amp builder and that was my paying my bills, I sure as heck wouldn't want anyone stealing ANY business from me, especially if I was a small brand-name.
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It's been documented in other threads that Alan from a Carol Ann feels that having the modeled amp has brought him business he would not have ever gotten without it.

He has replied directly on the topic himself.



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greiswig said:
there's some odd little feedback loop that you can dial in by running some of the preamp tube leads parallel to one another, and between that and getting the phase inverter balanced just so, there's a neat bloom that just happens even at low volumes on the real amp.
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...and I thought this would be my little dirty secret regarding D-tone and note flipping ;) About the phase inverter (which I believe is the most underrated part in a Class A/B guitar amplifier btw.) most guys just balanced the DC plate voltages when talking about balanced phase inverter circuits, but the magic here goes for AC balancing. Can be done by ear (if you know how and know what to expect and when) or with an oscilloscope and signal generator. I prefer using my ears and playing my guitar when tweaking it......since years!

the bloomy, flipping feel started with the ODS Lead 3 introduced in Fw12 and was almost perfect with Fw12.03b4 IMO - Fw13 distoryed it, Fw14.00 recovers it again, Fw15 was not in my book, neither was Fw17. Fw18 is much better, still lacks a bit of gain, still need some little tweaking, but it's there..... ;) All IMO.....see my current Fw18b patch here: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...ford-nope-ods-ford-mustang-fw18-yippieeh.html

I also build my own d-inspired amp designs, not clones....own voicing, special design
For example here is a short demo of my revoiced Bassman TEN over 2x12" Vintage30s: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=333340333519746&set=vb.274498826070564&type=2&theater. Or my Fender CBS 5Watt champ revoicing job (which will be available in a 12Watt configuration - KT66 SE with a special designed output transformer - mismatch by design, on request later this year) -> http://casanovasolutions.ch/pacosipulamioverdrivemini.mp3 (single EVM12L, open back cabinet used here)

Never owned a real dumble myself, but played on a real one once......
 
Lionheart said:
See, this doesn't make any sense to me. Why would an amp maker want to have a different manufacturer of an amp modeler, exactly cloning his amp to a T? Wouldn't that be bad for business?
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I've seen Allan say it's easy for him to distinguish between the Axe and the real thing (maybe esp. in feel), so another reason may be that he trusts amp purists that know the same to always bring enough business.

This was before the latest firmwares though and maybe more than a year ago, but I think he would still stand behind his opinion.

Maybe it's about what I've called the "dynamic maximum" in the past.
The Axe has one (IMO; but haven't played v18 yet).
IOW, you cannot keep on digging in harder and sound different. You are pretty quickly at the maximum (or used to be; therefore it was very easy to distinguish).
On a real amp, it feels more like you can dig in harder and harder and get the appropriate response and therefore adds a lot to the feeling. There is no feeling of a "converter / digital maximum." You don't have to start playing quietly and carefully as much to create some more dynamic potential for yourself. You can feel that if you could attack a note any harder, the amp would have a response to that that may be pleasing.

This all just probably still IMHO (too) after having played old vintage medium gain amps at an amp collector.
I've also always said other factors may have been into play and I should retest this...
 
Lionheart said:
See, this doesn't make any sense to me. Why would an amp maker want to have a different manufacturer of an amp modeler, exactly cloning his amp to a T? Wouldn't that be bad for business? That's why I am inclined to think that these type of deals are probably done where it leaves out somethings to where you'd still want to buy the real deal because the Axe-Fx model doesn't capture everything that the physical amp does. If I was an amp builder and that was my paying my bills, I sure as heck wouldn't want anyone stealing ANY business from me, especially if I was a small brand-name.
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I don't see it that way. I think most guitar players ger to play virtual versions of amps they never played through. I never played a Friedman but if one day I don't live in an apt and need a hot rodded Marshall type amp Friedman is at the top of the list. Never played a "real" matchless but loved them for snappy rhythym parts since using matchless sims on a POD. I would love to buy one and hopefully will some day.

I now own 3 guitars with TV Jones Filtertrons. What got me into them? Believe it or not, messing around with Workbench for Variax. I made a tele with trons, which I guess would be a cabronita and loved it. Bought a Gretsch, put together a parts caster with Tron in neck and just did a flying V with bigsby, trons, tele neck and even JTV variax guts.

If an amp manufacturer is confident in their amps, I think modelers will be good for business in many ways.
 
BBN said:
I believe Cliff stated in another thread that he owns the Tucana he modelled.
I had asked if Cliff was modelling a Tucana that belongs to a friend of mine, and he responded that he had his own.
That being said - my friend's Tucana is bad ass.
He has both the Tucana and Triptik.....they're both killer amps.
Actually, he has a Triptik combo amp as well that is the best combo I've ever heard.
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Hi guys,

Cliff owns a Tucana 3 and as of this week also a Triptik 50W (a lovely one in a gorgeous figured maple head cab actually). The Triptik originally modeled is the Axe was borrowed from a friend of mine and is actually a little modified. I drive Cliff nuts because I'll send him schematics, but I hand tweak each one, so when he opens his own up, it invariably different to the schematic. I do this so they all sound releatively similar and consistent. When you are building in the real world, you are dealing with hundreds of components that all have tolerances ranging from +/-1% to +/-20% as well as the effects of lead dress and the huge differences in tubes out there. So anyone who says they clone a Dumble or whatever because they are using identical components and values are generally missing the point totally. I cloned 5 Trainwrecks's for actual TW owners back in 2007. The owners sent me their amps to check out. I never opened up one of them. I just played them then recreated the tones I was hearing.

As most of you know Cliff owns many of the amps modeled in his products.

Firstly, the Tucana isn't a Dumble clone. The OD series amps are a bit closer to that thing, but still not clones. I've worked on a lot of Dumbles and they really aren't my thing. I'm British, I come more from the Marshall camp.

I play out live every week in a popular local cover band. I designed the original Tucana 1 model back in 2006 for myself. It was never ever meant to be a model in the CA lineup. But a few guys heard it and liked it so I added it and it to the lineup as a stand alone model or an ugrade to an OD2/3. I then updated it in 2010 to the Tucana 2 and more recently the Tucana 3. It's always been the flagship model and the one where I try out new ideas and designs that often also get included eventually in the other models.
The amp is meant for a gigging session player / cover band player /wedding band player. It's power, functions, ease of use, clarity of the front panel controls on a dark stage, biasmon circuit and wide array of tones make it a very useable 'live' model, just as it was always meant to be even before it was just my own amp.

To answer the question on the Axe taking away sales because it has a good emulation of the model....is about as far from the truth as you can get. They are different technologies and have different uses for different people. I use the amp in situations I wouldn't use an Axe and I use the Axre in situations its impossible to use the amp. All are part of my tool kit. I don't get in to the whole tube vs digital BS. Use whatever is the most suitable for your project. Right tool for the job. People who are hard left or hard right on the subject and generally not very experienced players in the real world......or simply forum trouble makers / haters.
 
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I can say that for myself, I simply couldn't afford/justify owning a bunch of amps, even really cool ones like some of the Carol-Ann models, so they in no way lost any sales because I have an Axe.

At the same time, if I had the luxury of being able to afford whatever I wanted, I certainly own tons of amps, "just because" even though I also would still use my Axe in lots of situations.

The Axe simply gives guys like me the means to play, albeit digitally, some really cool amps that I'd never otherwise get to play. Whats more, its turned me onto some amps I'd probably never otherwise experience, such as Carol-Ann (can't exactly walk into the local Guitar Center and plug into one) and should I win the lotto next week, and go on a mad amp buying spree with all my millions, I'd surely be buying a Tuscana and Triptik.

So in a nutshell, the Axe model didn't result in me not buying the hardware, and if anything, it would actually make me MORE inclined to buy the hardware if I had the means
 
Tex Axe said:
That said you have to get on it and ride it.
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show us the way Tex Axe, we need presets and soundclips! If I could get a dime for every word I've read from you without no presets man I'm telling you :p

great to hear your work, pictures would be awesome! get a dropbox or something because I'm sure there are many of us wanting a glimpse into this tonecave of yours! :)

Keep em coming Tex! I love reading your tonegooped thoughts :D goop, I like that. goopie goop goop. Ah shiet man, it's been gooped!

Who you gonna call? Goopbusters! :D
 
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