Fryette vs Tube head as power amp

[Greg Ferguson]

the Seymour Duncan powerstage are VERY underpowered for driving a 4x12, that's what you're hearing. Class D by design needs to be sized adequately to have the same feel of a class A/B amp, I'm not that type of engineer but Cliff has a post somewhere explaining the reason quite well.

I think these are probably Cliff’s quotes you were referring to:

Use a good power amp and try again. Those Powerstage things are budget Class-D amplifiers in a shiny box. The damping factor on them is quite poor at high frequencies.

A lot of it is about transient energy storage. A tube amp stores a LOT of energy. Take a typical 100W tube amp like a Diezel. It will typically have 220uF of reservoir capacitance and a B+ of 450V. The energy stored is 22.3 Joules!!!

Now take a typical consumer Class-D "500W" power amp (actual continuous power about 100W). They usually have voltage rails around 50V and 680uF or so of capacitance. The energy stored (assuming bipolar supplies) is 1.7 Joules.

The tube amp has over 13 times the energy storage. So those palm mute transients are reproduced accurately. The Class-D amp runs out of gas.

For example, if your transient duration is, say, 100ms, and you're pushing a full 100W then the energy required is 10 Joules. The Class-D amp simply can't do it.

It's one of my pet peeves. People use cheap, low-end, consumer grade Class-D power amps and then make bold proclamations that the models don't sound as good as the real amp without understanding even a lick of the physics involved.

I put an Axe-Fx through a Crown X2 once and it Marty McFly'd me.

 

[axes]

The LXII is the only Fryette I haven’t tried yet. I bet that SLO is glorious.

The LXII is pretty much the best available tube option for modeler use.

Nothing compares to the SLO

 

[Lolo-G]

Do you think the SD Powerstage 700 is also undersized ?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Do you think the SD Powerstage 700 is also undersized ?

It's hard to say. Advertising-speak is hard to decipher.

They say:

* 700 Watts (per channel)

but then when I drilled down to the technical specs they said:

POWER: 350 W at 8 Ohms, 700 W at 4 Ohms

Of course the impedance will affect the output power, but I REALLY find it misleading when they play those pseudo-facts games. IMO, they should publish the conservative specs and not wave the "HEY! IT HAS 700 WATTS!" flag.

350W/channel into a typical Marshall-ish 16-ohm 4x12 cabinet is going to drop it to 175W/channel and by Cliff's comment that's underpowered. For comparison, Laney's LFR-412, which is an active cabinet, has a power-amp putting out 2600W. They could be playing games with the specs too, but the difference between 175W into a 4x12 cab vs. 2,600W is going to have an impact on the sound, and it should make people wonder why the differences exist and why the PS is so much cheaper.

I lean toward skepticism and not wanting to spend my money multiple times in incrementing amounts until I finally get to something that works for me. When I bought my EV PXMs, I was looking for solutions from companies that are recognized as pro-level and used onstage in arenas because their gear will stand up to touring or being dragged around in the trunk of my car.

So, is it undersized? It's probably got plenty of power for a 1x12 closed back cab with a neodymium-based speaker at stage volume. A 4x12 cab might be pushing it pretty hard at stage volume, possibly to the point of it clipping. Only the player, who's used it in their situation really can tell.

 

[Budda]

(Typical marshall cabs are stereo and run 4/16, worth mentioning)

When tube amps are rated, the impedance isnt usually mentioned there either.

In short, marketing is the devil.

 

[Gebella]

 

[Gebella]

If it's good enough for Steve Vai...

 

[Lolo-G]

It's hard to say. Advertising-speak is hard to decipher.

They say:

but then when I drilled down to the technical specs they said:


Of course the impedance will affect the output power, but I REALLY find it misleading when they play those pseudo-facts games. IMO, they should publish the conservative specs and not wave the "HEY! IT HAS 700 WATTS!" flag.

350W/channel into a typical Marshall-ish 16-ohm 4x12 cabinet is going to drop it to 175W/channel and by Cliff's comment that's underpowered. For comparison, Laney's LFR-412, which is an active cabinet, has a power-amp putting out 2600W. They could be playing games with the specs too, but the difference between 175W into a 4x12 cab vs. 2,600W is going to have an impact on the sound, and it should make people wonder why the differences exist and why the PS is so much cheaper.

I lean toward skepticism and not wanting to spend my money multiple times in incrementing amounts until I finally get to something that works for me. When I bought my EV PXMs, I was looking for solutions from companies that are recognized as pro-level and used onstage in arenas because their gear will stand up to touring or being dragged around in the trunk of my car.

So, is it undersized? It's probably got plenty of power for a 1x12 closed back cab with a neodymium-based speaker at stage volume. A 4x12 cab might be pushing it pretty hard at stage volume, possibly to the point of it clipping. Only the player, who's used it in their situation really can tell.

Thanks, Greg Ferguson, for the detailed answer.
I had noted that the PowerStage 700 delivers "only" 350W into an 8-ohm load.

There must be well-designed Class D/H amps capable of properly amplifying strong audio transients, such as palm-muting or very percussive playing, like Cory Wong for example.
I understand your approach, which led you to choose the EV PXMs.

Reading some of the threads on this forum, one gets the impression that the only solution capable of delivering these power peaks is tube amps. If this is true, there is room on the market for a reputable manufacturer who could develop amp heads without tube technology, but with transistors adapted to our needs for modeling systems, which are precisely there to digitally deliver all the audio qualities of tube preamps and amps! That's Fractal's job.
Then we have to find the system capable of faithfully reproducing this in our physical world!
Of course, the obvious answer is: Use quality PA speakers like Greg does.

Getting back to my amplification system, I use speaker combinations equipped with Jensen N12Ds at 8 ohms. Or I use the PS700 in stereo with two 8-ohm speakers, so 350W RMS is available on each channel. I also use the PS200 with a single 8-ohm speaker, so 100W RMS in this configuration, and sometimes a second speaker at //, so a 4-ohm load in mono configuration for the amp, which offers 200W RMS.
The Crown XLS 1502 seems to have good reviews, but it's suitable for rack mounting and doesn't offer any correction, which is unfortunate for me because I don't want to correct on the fly on the FM9; I want to do it on the amplifier.

Before switching to the world of digital simulation, I played on a Yamaha G100 212 combo. The sound power offered by this combo has always been sufficient for the bands I've played in. I don't need a 4X12, even though the wall of sound must be pleasant to listen to!

 

[Greg Ferguson]

one gets the impression that the only solution capable of delivering these power peaks is tube amps. If this is true, there is room on the market for a reputable manufacturer who could develop amp heads without tube technology, but with transistors adapted to our needs for modeling systems, which are precisely there to digitally deliver all the audio qualities of tube preamps and amps! That's Fractal's job.

I think that if anyone can come up with it it'd be Cliff. He seems to grasp all the different aspects of digital modeling and amplifying it. I'd donate money to that cause.

Then we have to find the system capable of faithfully reproducing this in our physical world!
Of course, the obvious answer is: Use quality PA speakers like Greg does.

Well, that was my thinking when I started looking around but I'll make no claim that my thinking was sound. It just made sense to me at the time. ¯\(ツ)/¯

Honestly, I think we're all on this same road. I like my choices, the EV PXM and the Red Sound ELIS.8, but there's probably other solutions that would make me happy, and I am not interested in "perfect", instead I'm VERY interested in "plenty good enough that I don't need to fiddle with the knobs when I'm playing." I think that's a HUGE desire for everyone, we want sound that makes us smile, then laugh because it's "rockin'". I had my FM9 and ELIS.8 pair out last night and had fun being loud playing jazzy blues and loving what I was hearing through the speakers.

 

[TheRedDevil]

350W/channel into a typical Marshall-ish 16-ohm 4x12 cabinet is going to drop it to 175W/channel and by Cliff's comment that's underpowered.

A Marshall 4x12 with standard Greenbacks has just 100W. 175W is too much for these speaker, or about what kind of watts are we talking?

 

[zebric21]

In a recent rig rundown slipknot used the powerstage 700 for stage volume.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

A Marshall 4x12 with standard Greenbacks has just 100W. 175W is too much for these speaker, or?

The speaker rating is not the point.

Some companies advertise 175W Class-D as the same as 175W Class AB in behavior, and that was the point.

They’re usually much below that UNLESS the company selling them is very conservative in their ratings. That’s the reality in the low and middle tiers of the market in my experience, and the high end companies don’t play the games so they’re the ones to look at.

Too many companies hide behind their “numbers” in the “caveat emptor” game, and we, the buyers, have to decipher the real output wattage and distortion at a given level.

In a recent rig rundown slipknot used the powerstage 700 for stage volume.

How many into how many cabs of what sizes at what stage volume?

 

[zebric21]

The speaker rating is not the point.

Some companies advertise 175W Class-D as the same as 175W Class AB in behavior, and that was the point.

They’re usually much below that UNLESS the company selling them is very conservative in their ratings. That’s the reality in the low and middle tiers of the market in my experience, and the high end companies don’t play the games so they’re the ones to look at.

Too many companies hide behind their “numbers” in the “caveat emptor” game, and we, the buyers, have to decipher the real output wattage and distortion at a given level.


How many into how many cabs of what sizes at what stage volume?

I can't find the related video. It could be one time thing. I can recall 2 of them(ps700).

 

[TheRedDevil]

I think it's also a question of music style. I bet for classic rock or blues rock that's not needed but for metal/deathmetal with this immensive bass guitar "sound" it could be necessary. And don't forget the volume. Full power is not always needed. A look at the max power consumption in watts is also a good idea to identify what the class D amp is able to do.

 

[luckymethod]

I think these are probably Cliff’s quotes you were referring to:

Yeah that was exactly it, and the reason why I'm in heaven with my crown that I paid $150 used. There's some crazy deals on those from time to time, usually people that tried their hand at DJing and dropped out.

 

[luckymethod]

Do you think the SD Powerstage 700 is also undersized ?

Greatly.

 

[luckymethod]

It's hard to say. Advertising-speak is hard to decipher.

They say:

but then when I drilled down to the technical specs they said:


Of course the impedance will affect the output power, but I REALLY find it misleading when they play those pseudo-facts games. IMO, they should publish the conservative specs and not wave the "HEY! IT HAS 700 WATTS!" flag.

350W/channel into a typical Marshall-ish 16-ohm 4x12 cabinet is going to drop it to 175W/channel and by Cliff's comment that's underpowered. For comparison, Laney's LFR-412, which is an active cabinet, has a power-amp putting out 2600W. They could be playing games with the specs too, but the difference between 175W into a 4x12 cab vs. 2,600W is going to have an impact on the sound, and it should make people wonder why the differences exist and why the PS is so much cheaper.

I lean toward skepticism and not wanting to spend my money multiple times in incrementing amounts until I finally get to something that works for me. When I bought my EV PXMs, I was looking for solutions from companies that are recognized as pro-level and used onstage in arenas because their gear will stand up to touring or being dragged around in the trunk of my car.

So, is it undersized? It's probably got plenty of power for a 1x12 closed back cab with a neodymium-based speaker at stage volume. A 4x12 cab might be pushing it pretty hard at stage volume, possibly to the point of it clipping. Only the player, who's used it in their situation really can tell.

I've got a pxm too for my son's drums, if you put a lot of bass through it it really wants a subwoofer or to split the job with another unit but they are really great for the size and prize.

 

[zebric21]

There must be well-designed Class D/H amps capable of properly amplifying strong audio transients, such as palm-muting or very percussive playing, like Cory Wong for example.
I understand your approach, which led you to choose the EV PXMs.

That is my finding too using the palmer class d power amp. It softens the transients a bit. No big deal with high gain tones but cleans sound vastly less dynamic.

 

[OrganicZed]

The Seymour Duncan Power Stage amplifier specifications list the peak power rating, not the continuous power rating. This is from the datasheet for the ICE 700AS2 module (which I believe is similar to what is used in the Seymour Duncan PS700):



Extrapolating that data to 2 channels driven at 16 Ohms you'd expect about 100W per channel with an ambient temperature of 25 centigrade. That should be enough power for most situations. A 100W tube amplifier can output as much as 120 W when in full square wave output, so 100W continuous still isn't quite enough continuous power to replicate that level of power.

 

[atyourlasthourrr]

I'm still loving my Fryette PS-1 Power Stations. I'm sure that the newer Fryette stuff has some marginal improvements, but these are end game for me.