FRFR sounds terrible to my ears compared to poweramp/cab. What am I doing wrong?

Apples and oranges...

Digital preamp + digital power amp + digital cab = digital sound sent to FOH.

Analogue preamp + analogue power amp + mic'd analogue cab = analogue sound sent to FOH.

As an experienced live sound engineer and guitarist both sound very different. It comes down to the personal preference of individual players however.


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stevieg said:
Apples and oranges...

Digital preamp + digital power amp + digital cab = digital sound sent to FOH.

Analogue preamp + analogue power amp + mic'd analogue cab = analogue sound sent to FOH.

As an experienced live sound engineer and guitarist both sound very different. It comes down to the personal preference of individual players however.


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that's a pretty dated/biased opinion....and many, many would disagree. 99 of 100 wouldn't know the difference in a blind test.
 
stevieg said:
Apples and oranges...

Digital preamp + digital power amp + digital cab = digital sound sent to FOH.

Analogue preamp + analogue power amp + mic'd analogue cab = analogue sound sent to FOH.

As an experienced live sound engineer and guitarist both sound very different. It comes down to the personal preference of individual players however.
Click to expand...

Disagree. And that's fine. We don't need to agree, but just realize that there are plenty of old-school experienced FOH mixers and guitarists out there (such as myself) who think that current digital technology, properly applied, is easily as good as (much of the time it's better IMO) their traditional amp+cab+mic analog counterparts with respect to FOH.

JMHO.
 
Personally I just prefer "power amp and 4x12"
I think for me I've been playing them for 30 some odd years and when I use my FRFR rig I just miss the thump of my 4x12.

Don't get me wrong i don't think FRFR sounds bad and I actually have a full FRFR rig but maybe i'm just too old to make the change...lol.

What I did was mix the two together to make a "hybrid" wet/dry/wet rig using my guitar cabinet dry and two xitone wedges stereo wet and it sounds HUGE...
 
BTW, I might have to backtrack on my statement about FRFR not ever sounding as good. I have been playing around with "Dephase", cutting the mids a bit, and boosting "Depth" settings and getting some sick tones. It is really starting to sound like a 4x12 and scary. :)

Don't get me wrong, I love both but just happy I'm getting some unreal tones out of this sucker.
 
Funny, after getting some tones together for some sessions and live shows, after updating to quantum, I find I much prefer frfr. Weird, for the past year I have preferred ss linear power amp and 2 1x12 cab with v30 onstage. Now it sounds really blah, but frfr was great. May have to invest in some atomics or matrix so I keep my Vox wedges seperate.

Cheers
Ant
 
Wow...sorry gents, I had no idea this thread had taken off this much, I don't come here that often. I chucked the weekend at it, upgraded to quantum and bought cab pack 13, and I'm pleased to say that clean and crunch tones sound much better to my ears. Perhaps still not AS good as they do with a real cab, but definitely improved (I should note, I upgraded from FW15 - I stopped upgrading because I could barely hear a difference between firmwares and I got tired of the endless hype surrounding new ones. It seems the bigger jump emphasised the improvements). So yea, pretty great on that front.

That said, I cannot for the life of me get a good modern, high gain tone going. With my cab, it's a simple matter of calling up a modern sounding high gain amp (5150, one of the FAS moderns, etc.) and you're there. I've spent all weekend messing around with hundreds of IR's, mixing them in cab lab, (you know how it goes) and they still all just sound...bad to my ears. Kind of harsh, gritty (not in a good way), boomy, one dimensional, and lacking any sort of oomph. Truth be told, I'm getting pretty frustrated now. As ever, I'm not bashing the axe, it's a fantastic unit and I'm almost certain it's my problem because everyone else seems to get amazing tones out of theirs, but it confuses me a great deal that you can plug into some of these amps in real life and get a great tone off the bat, and yet with the axe it takes me a great deal of tweaking to get a fairly mediocre one.

Rggggh.
 
I think a mid-cut is almost mandatory when using an FRFR cab and doing metal/hard rock tones but just my own personal preference. I don't look at it like a typical amp mid cut where it sound scooped. I just think the sound coming out of an FRFR cab is a bit middy, so the cut balances it out.
 
ang said:
try making an IR of your cab. when it comes to frfr the IR is the key.
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^This^
It wasn't until I shot an IR of my own cab that I 'got' the FRFR thing. No other Factory or third party IR comes even close the one I did myself using my own cab. I have the same sound coming through the PA at gigs that I have coming from my real cab behind me. It works flawlessly.
 
I'm going to look at doing an IR of my cab. I bought a Q12a and have been loving the sound at home I got some fantastic tones, then I took it to a rehearsal tonight and used it. The first thing my bass player said was that my guitar sound sounded shit! Very digital sounding and no where near as warm as my 1x12 guitar cab - I was gutted. I thought it sounded ' dry and lifeless and it did sound digital - I'm very disappointed I will try taking the treble down from 20 to 8k and see if that helps. I don't know how to do an IR of my cab but will read into it. But just wanted to say how gutted and disappointed I am with it, especially after having such a great sound at home (quieter volumes) maybe FRFR is for home use only.
 
I wouldn't go so far as to say IRs sound "horrible". I believe there is a little bit of a loss with an IR, but they sound far from horrible if applied correctly.

I think there are a lot of players who have no idea how to work with IRs, how to select mix-ready tones, and what to expect when hearing their guitar in that context.

That said, I went with a real cab for my live rig for a reason. For starters, it will just work better for my immediate rehearsal needs. And for seconds, a mic'ed cab does have a slightly different sound than even an UR IR that's been loaded into the Axe-fx II. It's very small in difference, but it's there.
 
I guess going back to the original post, did you ensure that the Global power amp and cab simulations are on when you switch to FRFR?
 
jimfist said:
Disagree. And that's fine. We don't need to agree, but just realize that there are plenty of old-school experienced FOH mixers and guitarists out there (such as myself) who think that current digital technology, properly applied, is easily as good as (much of the time it's better IMO) their traditional amp+cab+mic analog counterparts with respect to FOH.

JMHO.
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+1

If the patch is dialed properly, I will take axe over a mic'd cab for FOH every day of the week.


Can the OP upload a preset so some of us can try and help you?
 
Cliff just needs to do some magic and figure out a way to model a cab like he does an amp. No mics involved. Model the cab frequency, the magnet, coil, paper and wood. He could do it I bet if he wanted to.
 
I get a fantastic sound from my Q12 FRFR in the house at quiet volumes, warm and full. unfortunately I found the change in sound when you crank up the volume is much more radical than a real cab, it goes from warm and full to harsh, brittle and very digital sounding.
 
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andyp13 said:
I get a fantastic sound from my Q12 FRFR in the house at quiet volumes, warm and full. unfortunately I found the change in sound when you crank up the volume is much more radical than a real cab, it goes from warm and full to harsh, brittle and very digital sounding.
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I think this probably says more about the delivery system (the FRFR speaker system) and necessary tonal compensation (Fletcher-Munson) than it does the modeling and IR technology.

I won't say that an IR always sounds "better" than the real thing, but in general terms, it is far easier to get a good, consistent tone night in and night out. Sometimes the IR sounds much better, sometimes as good, but I can't recall the last time I thought the IR tone (crafted or chosen to my personal taste) was worse sounding than a mic'd cab. Perhaps in a studio session, but that's about it.
 
Just different strokes, use what works for you... if 4 full stacks is what it takes to do it for you, go for it.
 
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