FRFR sounds terrible to my ears compared to poweramp/cab. What am I doing wrong?

[stevieg]

Here we go again with the spin that FRFR is actually a true representation of what the audience hears when you mic a real guitar amp/cab. Not true. Just a convenient way of attempting to explain away the true sound of digital FRFR that you can never get away from.

 

[dbun]

Honestly, I don't think it is possible for FRFR to sound as great as a poweramp and cab.

That's unfortunate seeing as it's the only way we get to hear the greatest bands in the world

 

[symphx]

Here we go again with the spin that FRFR is actually a true representation of what the audience hears when you mic a real guitar amp/cab. Not true. Just a convenient way of attempting to explain away the true sound of digital FRFR that you can never get away from.

The above is true. I to have stated the logical argument that 99% we don't hear amp in the room from concerts to recordings. However that doesn't mean an "ir " digitally placed in an emulated powe amp is equivalent to a real cab mic and power amp.


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[romanianreaper]

that sucks, cuz i've been listening to my favorite guitarists through full range speakers on albums and at live shows for my whole life

I guess I mean "feel". For me it is a much different experience sitting in front of one 12-inch speaker with a tweeter and up front in a cab versus a big 4x12. Is just different.

 

[wcfieldskx]

I guess I mean "feel". For me it is a much different experience sitting in front of one 12-inch speaker with a tweeter and up front in a cab versus a big 4x12. Is just different.

Fair Enough. Some people (including myself) can't be bothered with FRFR. I'm the same as you, it doesn't feel right to me.

In fact, I just bought a Mark V and am only using my Axe-Fx II for effects. I couldn't be happier.

 

[MikeAllenPugh]

Fair Enough. Some people (including myself) can't be bothered with FRFR. I'm the same as you, it doesn't feel right to me.
In fact, I just bought a Mark V and am only using my Axe-Fx II for effects. I couldn't be happier.

My CLR power amp blew up at a gig I was depping at recently (thankfully OUT2 to FOH saved the day through stage monitors. And a massive thanks to Tom King for getting a new power section to me in a matter of a few days - highly impressive). As we had two really big gigs the next day, the band owner asked for me to bring a tube rig along with me as he didn't trust the Axe \ CLR setup and that three sound engineers at separate gigs couldn't even take an OUT2 feed to their desk properly (mine goes to OUT2 to my desk as soon as I get home!). So.....I took one of my old setups of a Dr Z Maz 38 NR and Dr Z 2x12 Best cab with a TC Nova System, a Nova Drive and a Wampler Pinnacle 2. The sound was absolutely immense and I'd forgotten how good it sounded. The band members all said how great it sounded and I was fiddling around less with that than with my Axe setup trying to get the backline sound somewhat right. Life was far more simple. So, as a result, I doubt I'll be using FRFR again and will be using the Axe just for effects. I've tried everything I can and have had some great options regarding making the FRFR solution work better (and it did improve it). For me, I just prefer the traditional amp and cab (been down the Matrix GT1000FX and lots of traditional cabs too) with the Axe in a 4CM config. It works for me, but everybody is different.

 

[shayne202]

i have yamaha HS monitors and mine also sounded CRAP when i plugged my axe directly into my focusrite 2i4. i hated it ! it completely changed when i went into my mixing desk before going into my focusrite. i dont know why or how. i just know that it now sounds fantastic and translates perfectly to my atomic clrs.

 

[sam]

Hi kgk,

I have been playing gigs lately using Axe-FX II -> Matrix power amp -> guitar cab (one of which is the ZBest by the way). I have really enjoyed it after years of using FRFR only.

FRFR has a *great* sound, but the way a good guitar cabinet pushes sound is amazing and feels and sounds great.

I have also been playing gigs with my Dr Z Therapy head, using Axe-FX II for effects only in front of the Therapy, into guitar cab. This has also been really fun. This setup feels a little more "raw" than using amp sims, but also a little harder to control as I have to manage the volume level of the head while I'm finding its sweet spot.

Overall using Axe-FX amp sims into a guitar cab via the Matrix is proving to be very fun and it is very flexible and sounds great too. Love that Axe-FX!

 

[jlynnb1]

Here we go again with the spin that FRFR is actually a true representation of what the audience hears when you mic a real guitar amp/cab. Not true. Just a convenient way of attempting to explain away the true sound of digital FRFR that you can never get away from.

i disagree. the only way it isn't true is if you are playing small stages with amps blasting. if the audience isn't hearing your actual cab but rather your mic'd tone, the Axe is a more true representation. this doesn't even go down the rabbit hole of most guys don't have a clue of what their tones actually sound like due to off axis tweaking, floor coupling, open backs bouncing the much darker rear cab tone off of walls and floors, etc.

 

[jimfist]

Here we go again with the spin that FRFR is actually a true representation of what the audience hears when you mic a real guitar amp/cab. Not true. Just a convenient way of attempting to explain away the true sound of digital FRFR that you can never get away from.

Not spin. At the very least, these are opinions that IR technology is quite viable as a replacement to live mic'ing, rivaling it at the very least, and outperforming it in many cases due to the flexibility of the IR (multiple mics, different angles & distances, different cabs and speakers. Go ahead and convince the FOH mixer at your local venue that you need a minimum of 2 mics on each of your Marshall, Mesa, Orange, and Fender cabinets, in your custom analog switching rig.).

You get this option at your typical club, mic'ing your cabinet:

while FRFR IR users get this option

and this option

and this option

It's OK, though. Everyone can like what they want to like. No need for the anti-IR crowd to slag those who like what they hear when they use them...and vice versa. Just saying, IMHO, IRs don't suck.

 

[admgloval]

Not spin. At the very least, these are opinions that IR technology is quite viable as a replacement to live mic'ing, rivaling it at the very least, and outperforming it in many cases due to the flexibility of the IR (multiple mics, different angles & distances, different cabs and speakers. Go ahead and convince the FOH mixer at your local venue that you need a minimum of 2 mics on each of your Marshall, Mesa, Orange, and Fender cabinets, in your custom analog switching rig.).

You get this option at your typical club, mic'ing your cabinet:

while FRFR IR users get this option

and this option

and this option

It's OK, though. Everyone can like what they want to like. No need for the anti-IR crowd to slag those who like what they hear when they use them...and vice versa. Just saying, IMHO, IRs don't suck.

I definitely don't think IR's suck, it's just that for me, they don't sound as good as a real guitar cab. I have been experimenting with them more now that I have some studio monitor speakers and DAW software and am starting to sort of get used to the way they sound. I think it is probably just a learning thing and I will need to learn how to properly make a guitar tone sound good with multiple tracks, etc. Even pro guitarists spend weeks in the studio trying to make their guitar tone sound the way they want it to with traditional tube amp/cab. I was reading about when Carcass went to record Heartwork that Bill Steer went through so many different amp/cabinet/speaker/mic combinations and eventually ended up with some kind of strange custom built cabinet that had no back on it! Additionally I think they moved it into different rooms etc until he found one that "resonated" the way he wanted it to. So I'm sure it's definitely a learning experience!

 

[romanianreaper]

I think this is a really good discussion and very helpful, especially speaking about IRs. We already know that different IRs can make a huge difference so maybe it comes down to the right IRs.

Let me ask you guys this. Do you think that the IR speaker type and size has an affect on what type of FRFR "output" you would need to take full advantage of IRs? For example, if you are playing a 1x12 emulation into a 1x12 FRFR speaker, is it going to translate the sound of that speaker selection better than a 4x12 emulation into a 1x12 FRFR speaker? Are there missing elements that cannot be reproduced or does it matter?

Why is it that alot of folks have better success with FOH, recordings, and computer speakers (in some cases) than one FRFR cab and headphones (again, some types)? It is like there is a certain group of frequencies that work better for some reason. I think the tone is there somewhere but I think it can be a struggle finding the right ones.

I don't know, I'm probably not making much sense. Cliff has found things inside the Axe-FX that we didn't even think were possible a few years ago. I'm sure there is going to be some type of button in the unit in the future that adjusts a few settings for FRFR. We are already seeing the beginning of this with the "Dephase" feature. I'm sure there is more to come.

 

[Keg8605]

Maybe try adding a sub to your monitors may may not help. Or mic up your cab each show and be happy.

I'm loving my power amp cab tone after quantum, prior I actually was having an easier time dialing in FRFR patches. I also have the Yamah hs80m and I think they do a great job but alas you are listening to a different tone than the power amp cab. I have a lot of faith in IR's these days and I think you just need to adjust your ears for that direct tone or like I said use a mic and be happy.

 

[brokenvail]

IR choice and phase play a huge role. Some IR's are super phasy. I have played next to so many guys with great in the room tone while I am off going FRFR. I never sounded bad but to them they sounded so much better. When we eventually hear playback via recording captured at the desk or via someone's phone ect I slay them almost every time. At best we sound as good as each other but non have ever sounded better. I am not bragging here or anything it is just crazy how often I hear what happened to my tone?

We hear an amp in the room pointed at our legs. A mic hears the amp through a diaphragm the size of a quarter right up against that grill. That miced up sound is what we are used to though when listening to records or watching or fav bands if it is a larger show ect

 

[romanianreaper]

IR choice and phase play a huge role. Some IR's are super phasy.

I think that is exactly what most folks would describe as the problem, that "phasey" sound. Clark Kent's "GIFT" IR that he posted months ago (maybe years?) is phenomenal and I wish every IR sounded as clear as that one.

I agree that recorded tones are some of the best I've ever had. Just sound awesome!

 

[REDD]

Sounds like cab Sims aren't on in global if it sounds fizzy and bad. I use an amp and cab but frfr isn't terrible.

 

[brokenvail]

I think that is exactly what most folks would describe as the problem, that "phasey" sound. Clark Kent's "GIFT" IR that he posted months ago (maybe years?) is phenomenal and I wish every IR sounded as clear as that one.

I agree that recorded tones are some of the best I've ever had. Just sound awesome!

thanks to the dephase knob cliff added we have the power to fix that stuff on our own know. I don't suffer from that mega phasyness issue with my IR of choice but now I know if I ever want to go "cab shopping" I can get rid of the phase

 

[rodzimguitar68]

Do you have power amp modeling turned off in the global settings to play through your amp? If you don't turn this back on when playing through FRFR it will not sound like how you described.

+1 This^

I have read that during certain firmware or beta firmware upgrades, the global power amp sims and Cab sims settings revert to off.

That could explain your direct sound being unpleasant.

I only use my Axe FX direct from the XLR output 1 and into a sound system, and use in-ear monitors.

My rig sounds a lot like Jesus returning in the clouds with 10,000 angels behind him.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Ampguy]

Do you have power amp modeling turned off in the global settings to play through your amp? If you don't turn this back on when playing through FRFR it will not sound like how you described.

This was my first mistake and made my Db technology Operas sound terrible. Next mistake was trying to get a HiFi like sound (sounded fantastic in the studio and was lost in a live mix) you need lots of mid range frequencies and less top and bottom.
I now have a great sound and it can be heard over drums and bass.
[emoji4]

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[aziz]

With Axe, you're applying big concert tech to any gig. The audience hears only the FOH sound, and it's really easy to F up micing an amp. If not F'd up, it's still not a perfect micing. Usually it's just an sm57 pointing at somewhere. Good IR's will sound million times better than this.

The only one who does not hear this are the players on stage.

I think I have a gig recording somewhere, Marshall and Axe. Both sounded great on stage, but the Marshall was horrible through the FOH. Thin, raspy, gutless. Marshall may have "moved more air" and flapped the guitarist's pants better, but for the audience, there was no contest, the Axe is 10 times better.

All that said, a good frfr will not sound terrible to the player either. Bigger the better. Sound check is a good moment to go to the audience's side and have all the PA to yourself. Crank everything and I guarantee a bigger rock'n roll star feeling than any amp alone. For the old skool trouser flapping effect with smaller monitors, boost the bass (on your monitor, not the PA feed).

Add power amp and cab to Axe and you have the best of both worlds. I add a CLR on top of all that, so I have the best of all worlds.