Few questions from a new user

dumbeat said:
Being a new user, i wanted, as an exercise, to bring the Basic blocks of amps which i like and own and see how they behave in a basic form. Im a serious tinkerer of gear, so the creative aspect is clear and appealing to me off the bat, however, i wanted to test the models/modeling in a very basic and familiar form... no sweat.
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sure, understood. i wasn't implying any negativity, just to be sure. it's a common thing.

i just feel that the intent of the Axe isn't necessarily to "clone" other setups, but to create using similar and familiar aspects, not exact copies necessarily. slight difference in approach.
 
chris said:
sure, understood. i wasn't implying any negativity, just to be sure. it's a common thing.

i just feel that the intent of the Axe isn't necessarily to "clone" other setups, but to create using similar and familiar aspects, not exact copies necessarily. slight difference in approach.
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I have no problem with this Philosophy, on the contrary, its just that i assumed, when i bought it, that it is an Amp simulator, which means Authentically replicated known amps. It is both, with an emphasis on the experimental creative side i suppose. Im totally cool and happy with that, Im learning about this as i go along.
 
In some ways having tons of amp models is very cool, being able to match what you know and love, without the hassles of volume, maintenance, transports etc is great and a long list of desirable models no doubt helps to sell more units too. At the same time, I can't help feel that often is results in too much emphasis on "such and such model is missing", "why isn't this channel of such and such amp modeled", "this amp model doesn't sound the same as my amp model" etc.

That is a huge part of the overall forum traffic with "wish list" for adding more models being a really big one, and at times it seems like some folks feel that they are still limited by not having ______, even though there are probably 20+ models with a very similar circuit. People seem to "need" the writing on the box so to speak.... Give it that label that its such and such brand or bust.

Interestingly, I've personally found that in a ton of cases, the FAS amp models, which aren't based on anything specific, just Cliff's idealized take a given amp, sound as good, if not better, than some of the actual models. The FAS Modern, the FAS Hot Rod..... those things just sound great, but I think they get skipped over because people play with their eyes, they want to use names they are familiar with, that their guitar hero's used etc. That just is the way it works really... I mean look at the massive market for guitar and amp and pedal endorsements. MXR chorus with a Zakk Wylde bullseye graphic is the same as the yellow one, but many people will pay more for Zakk's name.

All of which often makes me wonder "what if"..... What if Cliff didn't design the Axe to emulate any specific hardware. What if the unit only contained like 20 idealized versions of typical guitar amp circuits ? What if it was all created with an emphasis on simply crafting great tones and no thought given to "does this tone sound like _____ hardware would" ?

Where would FAS be today ?

Again, go try a FAS Hot Rod, and then try all the various JCM800 style amps, the Friedman's etc and I think the FAS Hot Rod holds up amazing well.... BUT.. would people want to pay $2499 for a unit that sounds great but doesn't include the brand recognition and warm feeling names like Friedman, Marshall, Mesa etc bring to the table ?
 
chris said:
i just feel that the intent of the Axe isn't necessarily to "clone" other setups, but to create using similar and familiar aspects, not exact copies necessarily. slight difference in approach.
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What's the Tone Match block for if not to clone a specific sound? What are amp models if not attempts to accurately emulate actual amps? I defer to the product information for the Axe-Fx III:

"our latest modeling is the most expressive, musical, and accurate we’ve ever created."

Similarly, the second sentence of the product information references realism:

"Leveraging the power of this DSP allowed detail and realism that no other product had previously achieved."

Undoubtedly the unit is a creative sandbox, but it's one which touts accuracy and realism.
 
In my opinion, so far, it is standing in the technological era of departure from holding on to the known and loved in the analog realm and embracing the digital realm as an opportunity for new instruments that could not exist in the past. The end result would probably be real analog tube amps, either through a load box or not, for that task, and digital gear to create new sounds only possible in the digital domain, The fact that this era is the transitional era means that there are still mismatches between expectation and understanding the new times.

I was an early adopter of digital technology when i started producing records in the late 80's and early 90's, using samplers and DAW's, and this reminds me a lot of that. Granted, as evident from my postings here i am also still trying to grasp this unit and what its forté is.

Originally i wanted to be able to record all the guitars at my home studio, where i can not blast, and basically replicate the tone of my old Fenders and Marshalls, but now i look at it as new sculpting device that draws from the past but dont necessarily replaces it.

I must admit that i wonder if the Kemer does a better job at outright replacing my beloved amps. But thats a whole can of worms so i regret saying this already...;-)

Thats for now.
 
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Jason Scott said:
What's the Tone Match block for if not to clone a specific sound? What are amp models if not attempts to accurately emulate actual amps? I defer to the product information for the Axe-Fx III:

"our latest modeling is the most expressive, musical, and accurate we’ve ever created."

Similarly, the second sentence of the product information references realism:

"Leveraging the power of this DSP allowed detail and realism that no other product had previously achieved."

Undoubtedly the unit is a creative sandbox, but it's one which touts accuracy and realism.
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Sure, but this thread isn’t about the Tone Match, at least till that point.
 
dumbeat said:
In my opinion, so far, it is standing in the technological era of departure from holding on to the known and loved in the analog realm and embracing the digital realm as an opportunity for new instruments that could not exist in the past. The end result would probably be real analog tube amps, either through a load box or not, for that task, and digital gear to create new sounds only possible in the digital domain, The fact that this era is the case means that there are still mismatches between expectation and understanding the new times.

I was an early adopter of digital technology when i started producing records in the late 80's and early 90's, using samplers and DAW's, and this reminds me a lot of that. Granted, as evident from my postings here i am also still trying to grasp this unit and what its forté is.

Originally i wanted to be able to record all the guitars at my home studio, where i can not blast, and basically replicate the tone of my old Fenders and Marshalls, but now i look at it as new sculpting device that draws from the past but dont necessarily replaces it.

I must admit that i wonder if the Kemer does a better ob at outright replacing my loved amps. But thats a whole can of worms so i regret saying this already...;-)

Thats for now.
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Don’t get me wrong - I do think it can replace/replicate it as well. As mentioned above, the Tone Match can do this, as well as capturing IRs of your own favorite guitar cab.

I’m just saying the amps and IRs already in there capture those amps and cabs, not necessarily your copy of the same amp and cab. I think you get it, but just furthering the convo.
 
chris said:
Sure, but this thread isn’t about the Tone Match, at least till that point.
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If i understood his remark, he meant to say that this device DOES represents itself as a replicator in contrary to what people say in this thread, To which extent he is correct,
 
dumbeat said:
its just that i assumed, when i bought it, that it is an Amp simulator, which means Authentically replicated known amps.
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It’s indeed very much about authentically recreating known amps — and cabs and other gear. But telling you exactly where a mic was placed in a given IR doesn’t increase authenticity.

Let’s say an IR maker is capturing an Acme Wombat 4x12 cab, and he finds a mic position he really likes. He measures that position, and finds out that the center of the front of the mic is 1.53” to the right of the dust cap of the lower-left speaker, and 2.8” off of the grill.

He could include that information in the IR name, but that info would do nothing to increase the accuracy of the model, and nothing to help you pick an IR. That level of detail would only benefit someone whose principal source of Fractal joy is the curation of detailed information for its own sake. There’s nothing wrong with that, but the gear was really designed for people whose principal source of joy Is creating and using great guitar tones.
 
chris said:
Sure, but this thread isn’t about the Tone Match, at least till that point.
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My post wasn't about Tone Match specifically, it was about the idea that the intent of the Axe isn't necessarily to clone other setups, which tends to fly in the face of the marketing literature.
 
dumbeat said:
If i understood his remark, he meant to say that this device DOES represents itself as a replicator in contrary to what people say in this thread, To which extent he is correct,
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Yes, with tone match specifically, in my opinion.
 
Jason Scott said:
My post wasn't about Tone Match specifically, it was about the idea that the intent of the Axe isn't necessarily to clone other setups, which tends to fly in the face of the marketing literature.
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Agreed. This thread is splitting hairs on a conceptual level so the words are difficult to choose exactly. I think we’re are saying the same thing.

It accurately represents the amps that are modeled, but those may not exactly specifically match your exact copy of that amp. As Rex mention, the information of the exact mic position doesn’t add authenticity either, because 1 inch from the cone on their cab might not sound the same as 1 inch from the cone on your exact cab. Condition of the speaker, microphone, mic cable, preamp used, and so many other things contribute to the exact tone that that specific IR gives. So on a fundamental level, sure pick the amp and cab that you are trying to emulate. But doing that might not match the exact amp and cab you on, even if it’s the same model, and trying to make that match exactly can become madness. Even two copies of the same exact amp and cabinet can sound different due to specific components being different.

So again, I feel that using features like tone match and capturing your own cab can increase the accuracy of a matching your specific gear. But as is, I feel the goal of the Axe is not to specifically, magically sound exactly like your copies of analog gear. It’s to create tones using familiar amps and cabs, which may have their own slight variation of tone. Like I said, I personally view it as a creation device and not an imitation device. You can use features that make it an imitation device, but I feel that is not the original intent. This approach seems to be supported in both marketing material, and comments from the creator, developers, and other is very familiar with the gear.

Of course everyone wants to buy gear that will make them sound exactly like that van Halen record, or have that Metallica tone specifically, or nail the intro to welcome to the jungle. Again of course that’s what many people are searching for. And the Axe-Fx can definitely do that. But at a certain point, many of us feel that we should be creating our own unique tones and not relying on the specific sounds of the past. I feel the same way about other similar gear as well.
 
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Rex said:
He could include that information in the IR name, but that info would do nothing to increase the accuracy of the model, and nothing to help you pick an IR. That level of detail would only benefit someone whose principal source of Fractal joy is the curation of detailed information for its own sake.
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So why do IR creators include that information?
 
chris said:
Yes, with tone match specifically, in my opinion.
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You can clone the sound of a setup with Tone Match, however that's not the only practical way to do it with the Axe. You can shoot an IR of your cab using the IR capture utility and pair that with an amp model based on one or more of your amps.
 
Jason Scott said:
So why do IR creators include that information?
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They largely don’t. They capture a certain cab with a certain mic, find five or six positions that they like, and give each one a unique name (because that’s what you have to do with computer files). Those that do include such information are catering to the detail-curation crowd, but their IRs aren’t any more accurate for that effort.
 
Rex said:
They largely don’t. They capture a certain cab with a certain mic, find five or six positions that they like, and give each one a unique name (because that’s what you have to do with computer files). Those that do include such information are catering to the detail-curation crowd, but their IRs aren’t any more accurate for that effort.
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A naming convention that includes the mic, mic position, speaker and cab is useful, in my opinion.
 
Jason Scott said:
What's not useful about knowing the mic, mic position(on / off axis), speaker and cab?
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I think it’s a combination of what you can fit in the IR name and amount of useful information that actually affects choosing a sound.

People definitely choose with their eyes more than their ears in many aspects of audio.
 
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