Fender Deluxe - Am I crazy?

[marshall2553]

I'm struggling with Fender tones too. I can get really good tones out of the Tweed, Brownface, and Blackface models but it usually involves a drive block in front of them and it isn't necessarily what I think of as "the" Fender tone. It hurts to say this but I think my old POD XT captured more of the spirit of classic Fender tones. It didn't sound great and it sure didn't feel as good as the AxeFx, but the Deluxe model sounded more Deluxe-y and the Twin more Twin-y.

 

[Zen Guitar]

My advice is to A/B the Axe Fender models against the real amps using the SAME speakers.. i.e. the speakers in your (open-back) Fender combo. Then see how close the Axe sounds. The open-back cab is really critical here, no IR/FRFR combination can reproduce that effect.

That is good advice, however in this regard, and to my ears, the Axe-Fx still does not sound close. There are obvious differences in the amp simms themselves. I agree that better cab IR's and/or a good mixture of these would be an excellent step in the right direction, though. Also, as my own needs are for direct recording, running the Axe-Fx through my cabs to get closer isn't an option that I can make work (otherwise I'd just mic up my Fender).

Right now there are other modeling options which are delivering closer Fender tones (go test drive Amplitube Fender), so obviously it is something that someone as intelligent, innovative, and exacting as Cliff could achieve (and certainly surpass) if the time and attention were devoted to this. In terms of IR's, I would think that creating a couple stock IR's for these amps which are an amalgamation of close, distant, and rear IR's would be appropriate. This would seem to be something that Cliff could easily do, and could simply label them as being Open Back Blackface 4x10, Open Back Blackface 2x12, etc. Perhaps a couple flavors of each. The point of the IR's are to capture the sound of a properly mic'd up cab. For open back cabs, properly mic'd means something a bit different than for a closed back 4x12. I think that some composite IR's which are appropriate for the amps in the Axe-Fx would be a very nice step forward.

In terms of actual amp models, there are obviously some confusing things (Tweed isn't tweed, etc) and some big holes. I would think at a minimum, for Fender tones, there be at least:

Blackface Deluxe Reverb
Blackface Twin
Blackface Super Reverb
(FYI the circuits are not all the same, AB763 does not mean the same thing in each model, and of course the power stage and cabs/speaks are also quite different)

Tweed Deluxe
Tweed Bassman

Plenty of others that would be nice (low power Tweed Twin, etc), but these are probably the most recorded and most revered IMHO.

Cheers,
-Matt

 

[Zen Guitar]

Clipped from another thread/post I've done very recently. I think this is a great Fender Deluxe type of tone I've done.

Hi Scott,

Thanks for sharing and for always being someone to step in and try to help a brother out.

Absolutely NO offense is meant here at all, and I know that you are just sharing something that you've tweaked for your own tastes for your own purposes, but I'm not really hearing this clip as sounding authentically "Fender Deluxe-y." Sometimes playing context will have something to do with perceptions... would you be able/willing to record a couple short snippets with more of cliche blues lead approach with single notes, bends, and double stops. If you have a Strat, maybe toggle between neck and neck/mid on the pickups. If you have a 335 or a Lester, it would be nice to hear the contrast. I just want to see if I need to be heading more in your direction and change my patch accordingly.

Thanks!
-Matt

 

[Robboman]

Hey Robboman, would you be willing to upload that patch? Even if it's just a starting point for those of us who don't have an open back Fender cab handy, it would certainly be much better than blind tweaking (especially when you don't have a Fender specimen on hand to take the A/B approach you suggested).
quote]

+1

I'd also like to know which kind of guitar you use with your bassman-sim and which cabinet and speaker you use .

Hey guys, my patch was nothing fancy - just the 'blues' amp block, nothing else. I could try to find it and share it, but I'll re-emphasise my point first.. it's the OPEN BACK CAB! Axe > IR > FRFR did not get Fendery enough for me no matter how much I tweaked, but I was in Fender heaven shortly after I tried Axe > SSpower > actual Fender cab.

IMO.. You simply can't get the same in-the-room sound and feel of an open-back combo with the Axe (or any modeler)unless you are using a real open-back guitar cabinet. Until they make an open back FRFR monitor , or else try Jay Mitchell's trick with the rearward-firing additional speaker... this is just the way it is. I think Cliff basically agrees earlier in this thread, but again IMO. I'm guessing you could get very good recorded Fender tones with the Axe and good IRs, but I'm no authority on that.

A bit more about my testing: A stock tweed Bassman amp chassis has 4 RCA connectors for output to the 4x10 speakers. Mine was already modded to use a single 1/4" input jack instead (so I could easily put my 2ohm THD Hotplate in between the amp and speakers). This made it really easy to connect my Axe > SLA2 direct to the 4x10 speakers.

First I set up my Ultra into a QSC HPR right beside my Bassman and used the same guitar to go back and forth between the two rigs. I spent hours (days?) trying to find a close match and could never get satisfied. Then I bought an SLA2 so I could put SS power direct into the Bassman cab. I bypassed the Axe cab block and... BAM! That's what I was missing! I started carefully A/B-ing Axe vs Bassman (both using the same cab) and quickly reached the point where I couldn't tell the difference. Just to confirm I went back into the IR > QSC rig.. not even close.

Just a bit about my 5F6-A, it started life as a Fender Bassman RI that I've since heavily modded with a PtP board kit (paper in oil caps, etc), new OT, NOS tubes and Weber alnico 'Jensens' (p10q equivalents - better than the stock re-issue Jensens IMO). I've compared my amp to one real, vintage Fender 5F6-A and a Victoria clone. Mine sounds great and is very close, subtle differences between all three as you'd expect (variances in tubes, bias, speaker cone break-in.. the real vintage amp had original Jensens but they'd been reconed.. etc).

In summary, the 'blues' amp model is about as close to perfect as I can imagine. It's IRs that ruin it I like the other Fender models too, but I can't speak with as much authority on them. They all sound better through a real openback cab though.

 

[RDeraz]

had a feeling it was an IR prob.open back cab is prob. what most of us miss from the fender sound.it's funny,playing through an open back for years made me long for the thump of a 4x12.now i've got 4x12 thump in spades and longing for the open back sound. :roll:

 

[FractalAudio]

That is good advice, however in this regard, and to my ears, the Axe-Fx still does not sound close.

Right now there are other modeling options which are delivering closer Fender tones (go test drive Amplitube Fender),

Total and utter hogwash and rubbish.

And to prove it, here's a clip:

www.fractalaudio.com/temp/fender.mp3

The same riff is played twice. One of them is the Axe-Fx, the other is Amplitube Fender. All controls at noon on both.

Can you tell which is which?

Aside from really nasty aliasing in Amplitube Fender and very artificial sounding distortion (which you don't hear in clean tones like this) the tones sound nearly identical to me.

 

[mortega76]

I have no clue what the real fender sounds like but I just love the sound of the Blackface amp sim with the master turn up and using my Seymour Duncan Jazz pickup (Neck)... pounding utter juiciness!!!!

 

[gittarzann]

The same riff is played twice. One of them is the Axe-Fx, the other is Amplitube Fender. All controls at noon on both.

Can you tell which is which?

I like the first clip the best.

 

[marshall2553]

I like the first clip the best.

Ditto, I'd be curious to know which is which. I've had a Twin, Princeton, and HR Deluxe over the years and I can't dial in a comparable clean tone on the Axe. Scott's Deluxe preset doesn't really do it for me either. I'm not saying the AxeFx can't do it, I just haven't been able to coax it out of it.

 

[Zen Guitar]

Hi Cliff,

First off, the second clip is Amplitube. I knew this after first listen on my laptop speakers, but went into my studio to confirm through my reference monitors. The top end is the easiest giveaway.

Secondly, both clips, IMHO, sound pretty bad and not very Fender-y at all. I think that, in fairness to all, you could get better Fender sounds from both. I'd really love to hear your best attempt at a good Blackface tone... If I could be picky, I'd ask for your best shot at a nice Blackface Super Reverb tone with the bright switch engaged ala a guitar hero we both share, Robben Ford. If you need a reference track, I'd suggest Freedom off of Tiger Walk. FYI this is a BFSR for the cleans, not his Dumble.

Now, I make this suggestion not to put you on the spot, but to see whether or not those of us who are not happy with the Fender tones are simply not using the tools right. If you do nail it, then it would allow us to compare notes and get closer (and sing your praise in the process). However, if you can't nail it, then I would just ask that you think about revisiting these sounds in the Axe.

Cheers,
-Matt

Total and utter hogwash and rubbish.

And to prove it, here's a clip:

http://www.fractalaudio.com/temp/fender.mp3

The same riff is played twice. One of them is the Axe-Fx, the other is Amplitube Fender. All controls at noon on both.

Can you tell which is which?

Aside from really nasty aliasing in Amplitube Fender and very artificial sounding distortion (which you don't hear in clean tones like this) the tones sound nearly identical to me.

 

[AndrewSimon]

guittarzzan uploaded a whole bank of Clean and Crunch presets.
All the Fender amps sound fantastic.
Check them our they are on the AX-Change banks J and K

 

[RDeraz]

i don't know which is which,but the first clip had more brightness to it,the second one was slightly darker.

 

[VegaBaby]

I've had a Twin, Princeton, and HR Deluxe over the years and I can't dial in a comparable clean tone on the Axe. Scott's Deluxe preset doesn't really do it for me either. I'm not saying the AxeFx can't do it, I just haven't been able to coax it out of it.

Are you talking recorded Fender tone or amp in the room ? Big difference...

 

[marshall2553]

Are you talking recorded Fender tone or amp in the room ? Big difference...

In the room, but I'm also playing the AxeFx with cab sims off through a SS power amp into an open back 1X12 so I think its apples to apples.

 

[marshall2553]

I've always been going to the Brownface and Deluxe models on the AxeFx when I want Fender tones. I played around with the Twin model a little bit tonight and was pretty happy with the results. The Marshalls are just so easy to dial in, it seems like I struggle a little more with the Fenders.

 

[VegaBaby]

I've always been going to the Brownface and Deluxe models on the AxeFx when I want Fender tones. I played around with the Twin model a little bit tonight and was pretty happy with the results. The Marshalls are just so easy to dial in, it seems like I struggle a little more with the Fenders.

Do you have master on the Axe cranked ? Non Master amps 'should' have Master on the Axe around 9.33. I found it to make quite a difference especially with the Fender sims.

 

[yek]

... to see whether or not those of us who are not happy with the Fender tones are simply not using the tools right. If you do nail it, then it would allow us to compare notes and get closer (and sing your praise in the process).

Fair request IMHO, as many (even veterans and pros) seem to struggle to get shimmering cleans out of the Axe-Fx.

(A Red Wirez IR may suffice though. A R121 at Cap adds a pile of highs to the tone.)

PS Still like that tone in the clip Cliff has posted a lot. Which amp / cab?

 

[marshall2553]

Do you have master on the Axe cranked ? Non Master amps 'should' have Master on the Axe around 9.33. I found it to make quite a difference especially with the Fender sims.

Tried it cranked to around 9.0-9.5 and the low end gets really farty so I usually back it down to around 7.0. Like I said, the AxeFx may be perfectly capable of great Fender tones and I'm just not tweaking correctly.

 

[Deltones]

Like I said, the AxeFx may be perfectly capable of great Fender tones and I'm just not tweaking correctly.

Don't worry about this one, you're not alone in this. Like previously stated, most here are perfectly able to create a great Marshall patch with relatively little tweaking efforts. It's almost always the Fender models that have people stumped.

 

[Zen Guitar]

... to see whether or not those of us who are not happy with the Fender tones are simply not using the tools right. If you do nail it, then it would allow us to compare notes and get closer (and sing your praise in the process).

Fair request IMHO, as many (even veterans and pros) seem to struggle to get shimmering cleans out of the Axe-Fx.

I would hope this would be seen as fair and nothing confrontational. I admire Cliff's work and am thankful for his efforts. It's just that many of us have been struggling with a couple aspects of the Axe-Fx since version 5 (or before) and have tried as many ways as we can think of to come up with our own solutions. Many of us have tried and tried, shared patches and ideas, and are simply out of ideas. I have good ears and a good understanding of sound shaping (I work as an audio engineer and commercial musician) and I have good playing skills (have been playing 25+ years and have endorsement), so if I have been missing something all along, I don't think that it is something obvious. I understand the difference between "in the room" and "recorded" sound. I own and have owned plenty of amps (including many Fenders) and have my Super Reverb sitting next to my Axe-Fx right now, so it's not a matter of unrealistic expectation or comparison.

I think it would be very helpful to have Cliff jump in and show us what we have failed to see for so long. He is more intimately familiar with his creation than any of us, so he may have critical insights and ideas that aren't obvious. :idea:

However, it wouldn't surprise me if he did take the time to listen again and did find the need for some revision with these sounds. I wouldn't look bad upon him for it either... The guy has single handedly revolutionized the sound of amp modeling, has worked very hard to put his excellent product out their to the masses and compete with big names (Digidesign, Line 6, etc), and he still makes personal appearances in these forums to be involved in discussions like these. Listening to the squeaky wheel, even when so many people are simultaneously singing his praises, is one of the ways that his product continues to improve. I give him mad props for this.

My request is for Cliff to revisit the Fender amps and see if their isn't some new magic he can pour into them and perhaps add some new options for us.

Since I'm already up on my soap box... My other, non-related request, which I continue to carry a banner for, is to replicate the 5 band graphic EQ on the Mesa Mark series amps as this is as key to their sound as the tonestack is and using a parametric or graphic EQ after the amp block has left me similarly frustrated. :mrgreen:

Cheers,
-Matt