F*&@#$^% Microsoft

This is a bashing session it appears, the theme is to vent on a company that continues to evolve... good, bad who knows but personally I'd like to go back to Outlook 95 that was hands down the best!

yeah! seems it. Unfortunately I'm really "far" from the outlook folks, but I'm happy to send an email. I forwarded this thread to them, so I will let folks know if I hear back.
 
maildir? Uh.... Since we're telling jokes:
It was not a joke, and dismissing it as such is a very unkind form of communication. But next time, please find a funnier joke to retort.

As for using a much "simpler and already implemented" standard, where was the existing standard formats that could handle everything that a Word, Excel, or Powerpoint document could contain? To use any of the existing formats would make it impossible to save documents in those formats without losing formatting and/or data.

I know nothing of the process that happened to get these specs produced but I think it's pretty reasonable that Microsoft would want to make sure the formats were capable of storing the existing Office document capabilities completely. Think about it, if they had settled on anything less then customers that used any of the unsupported capabilities would not be able to use these new formats.
It's easy to find material on the process. Your argument is correct; that happens most of the time when you change formats, but nobody would have forced Word to exclusively use the new format. I am sure your thoughts played a role in Microsoft's actions, but it just explains in more detail why they were not interested in "standardization" in the meaningful sense of the word.

Standardization means, at the very least, to also abstract to identify essential concepts, generalize them, document them systematically etc. But what Microsoft did was "take what we already have and describe every detail", and in fact, there are numerous places where the same concepts are described in several unrelated parts of the spec, and specified in different ways.

They had been invited to the standardization track of the OpenDocumentFormat. They declined, because they thought that with their market domination, they could force anybody to use their formats, anyway. When the ODF process gained traction and industry supporters, they started the OOXML campaign in all its aforementioned vileness to get "their own standard". Which they did, and "their own standard" it is, in every sense of the word.

Regarding the size of the specs, yeah - they're big. Did you happen to notice that about a third of the size is image files? These docs cover the XML specification for every single thing that you can have in a Word, Excel, or Powerpoint document. You may not realize or appreciate the breadth and depth of what can be encapsulated in those documents, but it's a lot. A whole lot.
The difference is that you regard this as a feature (or as Microsoft catering to their users), I see it as the main problem (and Microsoft just continuing forever with whatever they started to not lose any locked-in customers). As for images.. the argument still holds if half of the size were images.

Just curious - have you looked at the size of other document specs? The HTML spec is huge - 20MB+ the last time I downloaded a copy. The CSS spec is painfully large and terse. XML, XSL, and friends make CSS look like a quick read. And so on. And this is a good time to point out that these open document types are fine examples of formats that only a huge company or other large group of developers could implement.
Of course I have looked at many specs, as part of my professional duty. You cite good examples of similarly atrocious specifications. And accordingly, at least HTML+CSS etc is now equally impossible to implement without vast resources, which is the main reason that there are so few browser rendering engines left, moving swiftly to a monopoly.

It appears to me that you think that the software mentioned above has great value to humankind, hence it's not only ok, but rather mandatory that we keep all its features (and hence, also incorporate them in "standards"). Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
 
They had been invited to the standardization track of the OpenDocumentFormat. They declined, because they thought that with their market domination, they could force anybody to use their formats, anyway. When the ODF process gained traction and industry supporters, they started the OOXML campaign in all its aforementioned vileness to get "their own standard". Which they did, and "their own standard" it is, in every sense of the word.
I remember following this in the news. That really wasn't a nice move by them! And if you look at which file formats e.g. Word supports. There's its default "Word-Document" with the extension .docx and there's the "Strict Open XML-Document" format with the same extension. So they don't follow their own standard in the default format?
 
It was not a joke, and dismissing it as such is a very unkind form of communication. But next time, please find a funnier joke to retort.

It's hard to take maildir seriously. It doesn't solve the problem of a more robust communication app and it is not efficiently scalable as-is.

It's easy to find material on the process. Your argument is correct; that happens most of the time when you change formats, but nobody would have forced Word to exclusively use the new format. I am sure your thoughts played a role in Microsoft's actions, but it just explains in more detail why they were not interested in "standardization" in the meaningful sense of the word.

Standardization means, at the very least, to also abstract to identify essential concepts, generalize them, document them systematically etc. But what Microsoft did was "take what we already have and describe every detail", and in fact, there are numerous places where the same concepts are described in several unrelated parts of the spec, and specified in different ways.

You're probably right that the formats they put forth started with "take what we already have and describe every detail". It's a massive undertaking to begin with and from the Office team's perspective it was a pretty sane way to go. And it's good for customers to have an open format that supports everything in their document libraries.

They had been invited to the standardization track of the OpenDocumentFormat. They declined, because they thought that with their market domination, they could force anybody to use their formats, anyway. When the ODF process gained traction and industry supporters, they started the OOXML campaign in all its aforementioned vileness to get "their own standard". Which they did, and "their own standard" it is, in every sense of the word.

This is no different than many other standard formats. Given the sheer volume of documents in Office formats world-wide, it makes much more sense to start there than to start with something lesser.

The difference is that you regard this as a feature (or as Microsoft catering to their users), I see it as the main problem (and Microsoft just continuing forever with whatever they started to not lose any locked-in customers).

I have absolutely no doubt that the Office team was catering to their users. It would not surprise to me to discover that some spark of this effort was from customer pressure. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

Of course I have looked at many specs, as part of my professional duty. You cite good examples of similarly atrocious specifications. And accordingly, at least HTML+CSS etc is now equally impossible to implement without vast resources, which is the main reason that there are so few browser rendering engines left, moving swiftly to a monopoly.

And here is the crux of the issue: the overwhelming amount of standards are born of existing technology. Being a standard doesn't make it the best or worst solution, it's just the one that's the market leader. I'm sure the Office team cringed at some of things they put in the spec - they had to start with a legacy of concepts and decisions going back well over 30 years.

HTML is a mess. It was not the best method for text markup and layout at the time but because of the popularity of Mosaic and Netscape, HTML became the standard. CSS was bolted on and is hilariously difficult to implement correctly, completely, and performant. And don't get me started on JavaScript or the completely awful way that Netscape integrated it into the browser. Yet, here we are - HTML is a mess, CSS is hideous, and JavaScript is a miserably wretched tinker toy programming language - and it powers the Internet which is quite frankly pretty damn cool.

It appears to me that you think that the software mentioned above has great value to humankind, hence it's not only ok, but rather mandatory that we keep all its features (and hence, also incorporate them in "standards"). Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I do believe the software mentioned has great value to humankind - it has empowered so many people to create hundreds of billions of documents for personal and business uses. It's hard to see how that can be anything but great value. And while you don't see the value of supporting all of those documents moving forward with open/standard formats, I promise you that the people that created and consumed those documents sure do.
 
For whats its worth I'm using the latest version of outlook, I just did a security update the other day and most of my interface changed... font, icons, placement of icons, behavior, point is you need to move on people that developed a platform quit, retire, die, etc. and the product UI people get new directions, if you know a better client than Outlook please let me know.. BTW Gmail is garbage...
Cheers...
GMail the web frontend is garbage. GMail backend is a masterpiece - use it with an IMAP client. On Windows, sadly, the situation with email clients is pretty abysmal. The best one that's not Outlook is https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/. It was nearly dead as well until recently, but there's now a new release with many improvements and updates. That's what I'm using on Windows and Linux myself.

On the Mac there are literally a dozen great email clients available, and the one included with the OS is not too bad either.

On iOS and Android Outlook is pretty great, because MS didn't write it -- they acquired Accompli and repackaged that.
 
GMail the web frontend is garbage.
Not sure I want to hear the answer, or the comments at me because I asked when it should have been obvious to me, but how so?

As I said earlier, I find it quite functional.
Search is pretty good.
Tags (as opposed to folders) work well.
It's got good track of people I've communicated with recently, and suggests them when I'm addressing an email.

Yes the world's dominant search provider has serious issues with privacy and trust, but that's not what we're talking about here I think.
 
This happened to us at our office the other day as well. We use "Lookout" 365 and the solution that worked for us was renaming the *.OST file to .old or something other than ost, deleting the profile from "mail" in control panel and let it recreate from the cloud. YMMV...Don't get me started on Internet "Exploder" :)
 
GMail the web frontend is garbage. GMail backend is a masterpiece - use it with an IMAP client. On Windows, sadly, the situation with email clients is pretty abysmal. The best one that's not Outlook is https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/. It was nearly dead as well until recently, but there's now a new release with many improvements and updates. That's what I'm using on Windows and Linux myself.

On the Mac there are literally a dozen great email clients available, and the one included with the OS is not too bad either.

On iOS and Android Outlook is pretty great, because MS didn't write it -- they acquired Accompli and repackaged that.
Masterpiece? quite possibly but do not know the Gapps back-end (please enlighten me) as I understand clustering. I can tell you when Google shares files its a master disaster, wont go into details here but anyone that knows and understands what Im referring to should agree, users are blind sided on where their data lives including Microsoft Fast Track.., (lots of fun) and yes I've used the IMAP interface too for gmail..while it works it also breaks often and needs to be reinstalled, if you use this interface your PST files are garbage... I've used web interface at corporate level for over 4 years now also migrated "The" org off the gapps platform and onto o365..I've been an exchange admin since 2001, started at Exchange 5.5 MCSE in 2000, MS is not "Fn%$*@ht" IMHO its mostly end user lack of education willingness to adopt changes in technology.
Cheers and Happy Saturday!
 
Nearly all blob like data at Google is stored in a backend called BigTable. You can buy a domesticated version of it through Google Cloud as a service. My info is dated though, I left Google 4 years ago. Maybe they have something else by now. Though I consider this unlikely - BigTable is rock solid.
 
Not sure I want to hear the answer, or the comments at me because I asked when it should have been obvious to me, but how so?

As I said earlier, I find it quite functional.
Search is pretty good.
Tags (as opposed to folders) work well.
It's got good track of people I've communicated with recently, and suggests them when I'm addressing an email.

Yes the world's dominant search provider has serious issues with privacy and trust, but that's not what we're talking about here I think.
It's functional, but it could be so much better. That's what I mean by "garbage" here. It's not the best UI for business email IMO.
 
Nearly all blob like data at Google is stored in a backend called BigTable. You can buy a domesticated version of it through Google Cloud as a service. My info is dated though, I left Google 4 years ago. Maybe they have something else by now. Though I consider this unlikely - BigTable is rock solid.
That's cool though I'm not familiar with Bigtable however I can say MSSQL is scale-able too, wink, node.. I have can say I have deployed Googles search appliance for 3 separate generations for engineering in the last 12 years but its no longer used anymore, Google internet search is still the best imo... data storage and management on the back end is much easier these days, multi tenant is the magic quadrant in cloud these days.
 
It's hard to take maildir seriously. It doesn't solve the problem of a more robust communication app and it is not efficiently scalable as-is.
It does solve the problem of robust local mail storage that is trivially accessible without any special software; that was the only point I made.

You're probably right that the formats they put forth started with "take what we already have and describe every detail". It's a massive undertaking to begin with and from the Office team's perspective it was a pretty sane way to go. And it's good for customers to have an open format that supports everything in their document libraries.

This is no different than many other standard formats. Given the sheer volume of documents in Office formats world-wide, it makes much more sense to start there than to start with something lesser.

I have absolutely no doubt that the Office team was catering to their users. It would not surprise to me to discover that some spark of this effort was from customer pressure. I don't see how this is a bad thing.
As stated above, the pressure came once Microsoft realized they could not stop ODF dead in its tracks. Things had to be rushed then, and the specifications show it, even if we assume (I don't) that they had every intention to create a useful specification.

And here is the crux of the issue: the overwhelming amount of standards are born of existing technology. Being a standard doesn't make it the best or worst solution, it's just the one that's the market leader.
I strongly disagree with both points. The first is probably true, but only if you count by pages. :) The second: "Market share" and "standard" are not completely, but almost orthogonal concepts.

Yet, here we are - HTML is a mess, CSS is hideous, and JavaScript is a miserably wretched tinker toy programming language - and it powers the Internet which is quite frankly pretty damn cool.
I believe you're talking about the WWW, not the Internet. The latter (decades before the original sin of HTML) --- pretty damn cool; the former --- let's just add that to the list of our fundamental disagreements. ;)

I do believe the software mentioned has great value to humankind - it has empowered so many people to create hundreds of billions of documents for personal and business uses. It's hard to see how that can be anything but great value. And while you don't see the value of supporting all of those documents moving forward with open/standard formats, I promise you that the people that created and consumed those documents sure do.
Like some of your points above, this refers back to the open/standardness; I explained why I do not see that OOXML deserves that label at all. If Microsoft products magically vanished from all computers right now, most of the people you are talking about would suffer just as bad with or without the OOXML spec --- simply because it hardly matters even to Microsoft itself, and it's written such that it is virtually impossible
to correctly implement in other software.
 
That's cool though I'm not familiar with Bigtable however I can say MSSQL is scale-able too, wink, node.. I have can say I have deployed Googles search appliance for 3 separate generations for engineering in the last 12 years but its no longer used anymore, Google internet search is still the best imo... data storage and management on the back end is much easier these days, multi tenant is the magic quadrant in cloud these days.
BigTable is basically a transparently scalable, fault tolerant multidimensional hashtable: http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//archive/bigtable-osdi06.pdf. You can basically store arbitrary amounts of data in it, with five nines reliability, and then access it at a million requests per second if neecessary. These are not theoretical numbers either. That's what it achieves in practice, in spite of underlying hardware failures. Their internal distributed filesystem (Colossus) is based on a similar design.
 
I thought all venting happens on FACEBOOK.

Oh wait. My bad. All of the factors needed for Facebook venting are missing here. Lol.
....What a shit show that can be.
 
BigTable is basically a transparently scalable, fault tolerant multidimensional hashtable: http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//archive/bigtable-osdi06.pdf. You can basically store arbitrary amounts of data in it, with five nines reliability, and then access it at a million requests per second if neecessary. These are not theoretical numbers either. That's what it achieves in practice, in spite of underlying hardware failures. Their internal distributed filesystem (Colossus) is based on a similar design.
Look like the problem with bt is its using cnn.com... lol
Happy Friday!
 
Since we're all groaning about Outlook...
WTF is going on with their UI. It seems they just keep slapping new things on without rhyme or reason.. there's buttons and icons in all parts of the title bar, then random icons in the menu itself, and then a couple of random buttons that don't look like anything else thrown in... and that's before you get to the action bar in which it's impossible to find anything because every group is a bunch of different sized elements, sometimes in a vertical list, sometimes horizontal, or sometimes a grid... I just don't get where they're trying to go with this.

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