Elder rookie question - using an OD with gain in front of a high gain amp = boxy sound?

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Deadlifts_n_Riffs

Member
Been playing for 30 years; this has bothered me from my teens but I never explored it.

Why does gain on an OD pedal running into a high gain amp give it a "50's radio broadcast" sound? Like all mids, no bass?

Example - TS808 (gain 0, tone 6-7, volume max) into (JCM800/Recto/etc.) sounds great, but if I turn up the TS gain to 2-3, the amp suddenly sounds small. I've been on a youtube tour of various metal band rigs and some of them talk about using a bit of gain on the OD, but in my experience any amount of gain from an OD or distortion pedal into a distorted amp turns the sound into doodoo. Am I using too much gain on the amp itself?
 
It's actually a very good question, one I've often wondered about myself.

The short answer is that adding an overdrive to the front end of a high gain amp, specifically adding gain from the overdrive, boosts midrange. The high gain amp is reading the input of a EQ'd effect, and focuses on the midrange. Theoretically, this type of tone is desirable in a band context, where adding midrange allows one to cut through the mix. By itself, it sounds bogus. But in a band context, the amp tone sits well in a narrow frequency range, with a voice of its own.

The reason a TS808 sounds great with no gain, tone 6-7, and volume 10 is because your ears are used to hearing an amp taken out of context. With no gain, the TS808 is just boosting the entire frequency range across the spectrum in volume. But with just a touch of gain, one can sometimes find a nice notch where the boxy effect isn't as pronounced, and provides the tones your ears are more used to.

EDIT: Nowhere in the OP's post did I read that he was running his amp full up. His gain stage might be up, but I didn't read anything about diming his level.
 
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Deadlifts_n_Riffs said:
Am I using too much gain on the amp itself?
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We don’t know. How is the amp set up?

If the master volume is set too high on the amp and you hit the pre-amp with enough gain to make the power amp go into clipping then the lows and highs could clip first leaving only mids. See Master Volume in the Wiki’s Amp Block page for more information.

[126] Boxy midrange is usually an indication of the MV being too high.
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[127] That's precisely what happens when the MV is set too high. The highs and lows compress first, especially with amps like a Recto, when the MV is turned up.
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Greg Ferguson said:
We don’t know. How is the amp set up?

If the master volume is set too high on the amp and you hit the pre-amp with enough gain to make the power amp go into clipping then the lows and highs could clip first leaving only mids. See Master Volume in the Wiki’s Amp Block page for more information.
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I had a good reminder of this a week ago, when playing out with my JMP 2203 for the first time in many years (same as JCM 800 2203 100 watt master volume). The thing with the real amps is that for indoor use, it's hard to get the master volume up much past 3 indoors, or 4 outdoors without everyone's ears bleeding. I use a Marshall Power Brake, but don't generally take more than 6 dB off with that.

The choice of how much gain to use in the preamp section is either edge-of-breakup or crunchy (2-4, and my preference), then using a boost, or dime it and let the preamp provide all the distortion. In the second instance you'd be starting with the master volume really low, and the sensitivity of the master volume makes it difficult to find a setting that doesn't deafen you.

The real amp is so very loud that you would never get near the "everything at noon" settings that the Axe FX model defaults to, let alone put a TS in front and drive the power amp into "all mids" hard clipping. My one has a few mods to warm up the preamp tone and reduce the gain, and I only ever use JAN Phillips 5751 tubes in V1 position to reduce the gain a little further. It actually sounds a little more like the 2204 Hi Channel JCM 800 model in the Axe FX than the 2203. Setting the Axe as I'd set the real amp, and any boosts as I'd set real pedals yields results I am happy with.

In short, all too easy to set the Axe FX up in a way you'd never get near with the real amps.

Liam
 
Turn the level down, you are missing that part of the equation. Sneap for instance will often run a TS with the level at noon/1 oclock, tone to taste, and the gain up on the pedal a bit, maybe 9 oclock or so. He’s said multiple times he never liked a ts with the level all the way up, but rather the way I’ve said above. It’ll still sound pushed and tight, but it won’t be nearly as midrangey etc.

Generally speaking this is how I’ve used amps and pedals in real life, as well as on the axe. The results to me, seem to be the same in feel, tone, etc. i do this with most pedals in front of an amp: horizon drive, tc preamp/dirty tree style pedals, nobles, klon, od 820….doesn’t matter, I’m in the camp of not liking the level all the way up at all, in general.
 
VESmedic said:
Turn the level down, you are missing that part of the equation. Sneap for instance will often run a TS with the level at noon/1 oclock, tone to taste, and the gain up on the pedal a bit, maybe 9 oclock or so. He’s said multiple times he never liked a ts with the level all the way up, but rather the way I’ve said above. It’ll still sound pushed and tight, but it won’t be nearly as midrangey etc.

Generally speaking this is how I’ve used amps and pedals in real life, as well as on the axe. The results to me, seem to be the same in feel, tone, etc. i do this with most pedals in front of an amp: horizon drive, tc preamp/dirty tree style pedals, nobles, klon, od 820….doesn’t matter, I’m in the camp of not liking the level all the way up at all, in general.
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Wouldn't the result be dependent on what guitar I'm using? ie, a lower output guitar > TS with level at 100% might drive amp input the same as a higher output guitar > TS with level at 50%. For me, the impact on the amp of an OD's level setting depends on the setting of other gain stages around it, so I have no standard practice for TS level. This is a reason I've abandoned non-midi physical od / ds / boost / preamp pedals - one setting at a time knobs for all conditions just doesn't cut it for me anymore when I enjoy my more analoguish gear from time to time (spoiled by Axfx I guess).
 
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as mentioned, probably a bunch of things. More clipping will make the amp quieter, but that doesnt equate the all mids thing discussed.

I run a monomyth 1987x with reasonably high gain and boost with an eqd special cranker. I landed on that because my od808 and sd-1 didnt have enough level when engaged, the tone was fine. I get a bit more compression and volume as intended.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
We don’t know. How is the amp set up?

If the master volume is set too high on the amp and you hit the pre-amp with enough gain to make the power amp go into clipping then the lows and highs could clip first leaving only mids. See Master Volume in the Wiki’s Amp Block page for more information.
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There's no specific setup I'm using; for example, I read somewhere that Buzz from the Melvins was using a Rat or Big Muff into a Fender Twin for some song. On another occasion I was trying to the get the smashing pumpkins muff to JCM800 setup. I created both setups in the AFIII and it sounded like garbage. That said, like VesMedic said, I had the level on the TS all the way up so that might be the issue.
 
VESmedic said:
Turn the level down, you are missing that part of the equation. Sneap for instance will often run a TS with the level at noon/1 oclock, tone to taste, and the gain up on the pedal a bit, maybe 9 oclock or so. He’s said multiple times he never liked a ts with the level all the way up, but rather the way I’ve said above. It’ll still sound pushed and tight, but it won’t be nearly as midrangey etc.

Generally speaking this is how I’ve used amps and pedals in real life, as well as on the axe. The results to me, seem to be the same in feel, tone, etc. i do this with most pedals in front of an amp: horizon drive, tc preamp/dirty tree style pedals, nobles, klon, od 820….doesn’t matter, I’m in the camp of not liking the level all the way up at all, in general.
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That might be it. Going to make another run at it when I get home. I was trying to do the smashing pumpkins muff to JCM800 rig and it was godawful, but I'm pretty sure the TS was all the way up.
 
Deadlifts_n_Riffs said:
Been playing for 30 years; this has bothered me from my teens but I never explored it.

Why does gain on an OD pedal running into a high gain amp give it a "50's radio broadcast" sound? Like all mids, no bass?

Example - TS808 (gain 0, tone 6-7, volume max) into (JCM800/Recto/etc.) sounds great, but if I turn up the TS gain to 2-3, the amp suddenly sounds small. I've been on a youtube tour of various metal band rigs and some of them talk about using a bit of gain on the OD, but in my experience any amount of gain from an OD or distortion pedal into a distorted amp turns the sound into doodoo. Am I using too much gain on the amp itself?
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You might find replacing the TS808 with the Super OD more transparent. I always prefer Super OD because it alters the sounds less than the TS808.
 
There are tons of drives in the Axe, all usable with more or less drive, and more or less output level boost.

Try everything!
 
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Tubescreamers sounded great for gaining up and tightening up cleaner amps to get a bluesier overdriven sound back before modern high gain amps came around. Metal players adopted the tubescreamer because they heard what the tubescreamer did for cleaner amps and just applied the exact same logic to higher gain amps, but yeah like you've discovered, the results are most often honkey sounding in a bad way.

I find an EQ pedal used as a boost, with the mids and highs emphasized and the lows cut back, into the front of a high gain amp is WAY better at achieving the tight crunchy articulate high gain thing than any tubescreamer ever was.
 
smilefan said:
TUTORIAL:
FORBIDDEN SECRETS OF THE DRIVE BLOCKS!
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smilefan said:
I’ve harped on various details of Drive block use for most of this thread, but I think
it bears repetition, now that many have their Axe II’s. So here is my lecture on
real world patch-making with the drive blocks.
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smilefan said:
Pg2:
Low Cut/ High Cut: Possibly the most important Drive settings.
They will make the difference between a ripping, shrill sound and
a smooth, vintage-approved sound. Sweep these both by ear!
Look at my settings. You’ll see how often I set the Lo around 600Hz,
and the Hi around 700Hz. I keep my Drive bandwidth narrow so my patches
stay defined, with a clear high end. (Take a look at my “Duane Allman @ Fillmore”
patch for an illustration of this technique)
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smilefan said:
These are just general guidelines. I have broken these rules many times
and gotten cool sounds. The ear is the final judge. OK, class dismissed.
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NorCal_Val said:
Running a mid-heavy OD(Tubescreamer) into a mid-heavy amp(JCM800), and it sounds like an AM radio? Color me baffled.
:D
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AM radios are known for having reduced bandwidth. Which is unfortunate, because the AM modulation standard is capable of 15 KHz bandwidth, which would make it hard for most adults to hear a difference. But most AM radios aren't designed for high fidelity.
 
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