Easy tip for those who hate mud on high-gain sounds.

jerotas

jerotas

Experienced
I learned this back before I bought my Vetta. What you do is cut the put an Graphic EQ block JUST BEFORE the amp block and cut the bass a lot (at a ramp angle). Then after the amp block, you put another another Graphic EQ and add the exact same frequencing back in, in the same amounts you had cut before. The reason being, distortion creates mud easily by distorting bass frequencies. And no, you can't get the same clarity by EQing the bass after the amp. We're not actually taking away the bass, we're just sending less of it to the amp, then putting it back in afterwards.

I just tried it on one of my patches (that sounded a somewhat muddy on low power chords), and the difference was night and day! It's a modified version of Das Metal 2. Now sounds incredible!
What I did was cut 63hz by 6db, and cut 125hz by 3db. Then after the amp, the 2nd EQ added boosted 63hz by 6db, and boost 125hz by 3db.

Let me know if you agree! This is very very easy to do with the Axe-Fx. I had to have two midi EQ's before in my rack-based rig just for this purpose.
 
Similar idea to using bass cutting ODs like TSs and such in front, or just the way you'd generally EQ a Mark series amp for heavier tones. Less bass up front, more after the gain stages.


In the Axe, I tend to just low pass with a filter block if I like a tone but need to tighten it up a bit. If I want to colour the sound a bit more, then I'll look at GEQ/PEQ work out front to boost or cut particular freqs, or a drive block.
 
jerotas said:
I learned this back before I bought my Vetta. What you do is cut the put an Graphic EQ block JUST BEFORE the amp block and cut the bass a lot (at a ramp angle). Then after the amp block, you put another another Graphic EQ and add the exact same frequencing back in, in the same amounts you had cut before. The reason being, distortion creates mud easily by distorting bass frequencies. And no, you can't get the same clarity by EQing the bass after the amp. We're not actually taking away the bass, we're just sending less of it to the amp, then putting it back in afterwards.

I just tried it on one of my patches (that sounded a somewhat muddy on low power chords), and the difference was night and day! It's a modified version of Das Metal 2. Now sounds incredible!
What I did was cut 63hz by 6db, and cut 125hz by 3db. Then after the amp, the 2nd EQ added boosted 63hz by 6db, and boost 125hz by 3db.

Let me know if you agree! This is very very easy to do with the Axe-Fx. I had to have two midi EQ's before in my rack-based rig just for this purpose.
Click to expand...


Low cut on advanced amp settings does this too....
 
Yeah low cut and those other methods work as well, however my methods actually matches the cuts with the boosting afterwards, which I personally find better. You might not know how much to boost after a low cut for example. I just try to keep the amount of bass the same as before, just cleaning it up.
 
eq'ing before and after the amp definitely can yield great results. But the amp will change the signal throughout all frequencies, so adding back frequencies in the same exact amount as before the amp doesn't really guarantee anything.
 
Standard Practice with Mesa Mark Amps. Cut the Bass knob way down and add it back via the Graphic EQ.
 
chapelizod said:
eq'ing before and after the amp definitely can yield great results. But the amp will change the signal throughout all frequencies, so adding back frequencies in the same exact amount as before the amp doesn't really guarantee anything.
Click to expand...

Well I've never had it not work (not even with other gear)....always worth a stab to see what happens. And yes I believe this would be standard practice on Mesa amps. But everyone might not know about it, so I wanted to help those who don't already know. :mrgreen:
 
Great tip! Not really having problems but it's worth mentioning every now and then.

I often cut bass with the amp's low cut but I seem to always gravitate towards the German Cab which is pretty bass heavy, combine that with some other cab for spaciousness. I choose between SM57 and Royer mic sims for more or less treble. Pretty much gets me where I want to go usually.

It's not as scientific and precise, but it actually amounts to much of the same as your tip.
 
Dutch said:
Great tip! Not really having problems but it's worth mentioning every now and then.

I often cut bass with the amp's low cut but I seem to always gravitate towards the German Cab which is pretty bass heavy, combine that with some other cab for spaciousness. I choose between SM57 and Royer mic sims for more or less treble. Pretty much gets me where I want to go usually.

It's not as scientific and precise, but it actually amounts to much of the same as your tip.
Click to expand...

That makes sense too. I think I've done that as well. Right now I'm not using the cab models anymore...got me some real cabs. Perhaps when I go to record I will use cab models again. I don't know. I'm pretty good at micing.
 
jerotas said:
I learned this back before I bought my Vetta. What you do is cut the put an Graphic EQ block JUST BEFORE the amp block and cut the bass a lot (at a ramp angle). Then after the amp block, you put another another Graphic EQ and add the exact same frequencing back in, in the same amounts you had cut before. The reason being, distortion creates mud easily by distorting bass frequencies. And no, you can't get the same clarity by EQing the bass after the amp. We're not actually taking away the bass, we're just sending less of it to the amp, then putting it back in afterwards.

I just tried it on one of my patches (that sounded a somewhat muddy on low power chords), and the difference was night and day! It's a modified version of Das Metal 2. Now sounds incredible!
What I did was cut 63hz by 6db, and cut 125hz by 3db. Then after the amp, the 2nd EQ added boosted 63hz by 6db, and boost 125hz by 3db.

Let me know if you agree! This is very very easy to do with the Axe-Fx. I had to have two midi EQ's before in my rack-based rig just for this purpose.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the tip!
 
jerotas said:
What you do is cut the put an Graphic EQ block JUST BEFORE the amp block and cut the bass a lot (at a ramp angle). Then after the amp block, you put another another Graphic EQ and add the exact same frequencing back in, in the same amounts you had cut before.
Click to expand...
I explained a bit about using pre- and post-EQ in posts on the old forum. The concept is a very useful one. There is no reason that restorative (post) filtering should exactly match what was removed prior to the amp, however. In many cases, the secret to keeping the bass tight is to simply increase the "Lo Cut" frequency in the amp block, then choose a cab sim that is bass-heavy to the degree required to recover a full sound. This is very similar to the way that physical amps (e.g., vintage Marshalls) are voiced.

Others have suggested using drive blocks that accentuate midrange frequencies (e.g., Tube Screamer) to tighten bass. There are many ways to reduce bass flubbiness. Actual pre- and post-EQ blocks are among the weapons in the arsenal, but there are other, equally powerful ones.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
jerotas said:
What you do is cut the put an Graphic EQ block JUST BEFORE the amp block and cut the bass a lot (at a ramp angle). Then after the amp block, you put another another Graphic EQ and add the exact same frequencing back in, in the same amounts you had cut before.
Click to expand...
I explained a bit about using pre- and post-EQ in posts on the old forum. The concept is a very useful one. There is no reason that restorative (post) filtering should exactly match what was removed prior to the amp, however. In many cases, the secret to keeping the bass tight is to simply increase the "Lo Cut" frequency in the amp block, then choose a cab sim that is bass-heavy to the degree required to recover a full sound. This is very similar to the way that physical amps (e.g., vintage Marshalls) are voiced.

Others have suggested using drive blocks that accentuate midrange frequencies (e.g., Tube Screamer) to tighten bass. There are many ways to reduce bass flubbiness. Actual pre- and post-EQ blocks are among the weapons in the arsenal, but there are other, equally powerful ones.
Click to expand...

I typically go to the amp low cut for this. but there is an interesting point about using a tubescreamer as others have suggested that I think is worth mentioning. Along with that mid-spike you were referring to, the TS has a rather high low cut frequency. I believe it's around 650-700 Hz if memory serves me correctly. That's usually been considered the TS's main pro and con. Some people love how it tightens up the bass with an overdriven amp, some people find it thin and want the bass back.

I'm not a big fan of eq after the amp unless it's really necessary. I try to go the old fashioned way and use the low cut and eq in the amp block and then find a cab that compensates for the eq settings in the amp block. To me, that sounds more natural. It also saves processing power.

D
 
Agreed. Works great.

This is a such a useful technique that I am surprised more amps don't have this ability.

Also, you can add ATTACK pre-distortion also - just boost anywhere from 500 to 2000 Hz. Experiment to fine-tune how much you want. I learned this WAY back when Rocktron had a two-band parametric pre-distortion eq in their Voodu Valve (still sounds great today!!). It made a huge difference. You could cut the FLUB out before the distortion, add some MID freqs in for attack then have your post-distortion 4-band parametric eq take you the rest of the way.

Got an Axe-Fx, got rid of my tube heads, but I still keep the voodu (since '95). Kinda went full circle.


Y
 
Best tip ive read on this forum really good, everyone should try this out:) for me with a tube poweramp and cabs it made the amps sound and feel like a real amp:) no more flub and still loads of bottom end. Happy days;-)
 
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