Does anyone know why the Axe2 doesn't have midi toggle CCs?

[JazzMac251]

One of the more annoying aspects of using a midi controller is getting your IA switches to behave intuitively like actual switches. The standard way IA switches work is for the first press to send a CC "on" message and the second press to send a CC "off" message. The problem is with this approach is that when you want to send an "off" command to a block that is currently "on", you have to send a useless "on" command first, meaning you have to stomp on the switch twice. This has always bugged me.

Fortunately, manufacturers have started addressing this issue by adding "toggle" commands to their midi code in addition to the standard on/off commands. This is really handy because the "toggle" message just tells the unit to flip the current state of the block regardless of whether it's "on" or "off". This not only makes using IA switches more intuitive, but it also frees up that second press for other potential programming uses.

My question is this: is there any particular reason the Axe/Axe2 doesn't have any toggle commands at all?

 

[NMG]

Isnt it all done in the midi controller?

 

[Thomas Larsson]

I have wished that function in a thread before but as usuall,
nobody agreed. That would be a great function because the axe allready
knows the current state of all effects. I don't think everbody want's to use the mfc every time.
But I guess there is some disadvantage with it since they decided to not offer it.

One of the more annoying aspects of using a midi controller is getting your IA switches to behave intuitively like actual switches. The standard way IA switches work is for the first press to send a CC "on" message and the second press to send a CC "off" message. The problem is with this approach is that when you want to send an "off" command to a block that is currently "on", you have to send a useless "on" command first, meaning you have to stomp on the switch twice. This has always bugged me.

Fortunately, manufacturers have started addressing this issue by adding "toggle" commands to their midi code in addition to the standard on/off commands. This is really handy because the "toggle" message just tells the unit to flip the current state of the block regardless of whether it's "on" or "off". This not only makes using IA switches more intuitive, but it also frees up that second press for other potential programming uses.

My question is this: is there any particular reason the Axe/Axe2 doesn't have any toggle commands at all?

 

[JazzMac251]

I have wished that function in a thread before but as usuall,
nobody agreed. That would be a great function because the axe allready
knows the current state of all effects. I don't think everbody want's to use the mfc every time.
But I guess there is some disadvantage with it since they decided to not offer it.

Well I certainly agree! I'd love to use the MFC...but I don't have $750-$800 bucks to blow on a midi controller. ha

It may just be oversight. I can't think of any disadvantages. Other companies have done it with success - I've owned Strymon and Eventide pedals that had this feature - the AxeFX isn't running out of CC messages any time soon (currently the entire range of 0-63 is set to off and 64-128 is set to on for every CC message. One of those numbers could be set to toggle), and, as you said, the AxeFX firmware is already aware of the current state of FX blocks. Seems like it would be a pretty easy change.

Isnt it all done in the midi controller?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Toggle commands are CC messages (usually?) that are programmed into the device itself. These commands just tell the device to A/B a certain setting with a single CC message. It currently takes 2 different CC messages to turn off/on a single block in the Axe.

 

[s0c9]

Fractal is a small company that has 2 basic products.. the Axe-II and the MFC. The latter being a MIDI foot controller for the Axe-II (and their obsolete/archived products, the Std and Ultra). From a marketing perspective, it does not make sense to make ones primary products MIDI interface wholly compatible with other (cheaper) MIDI foot controllers on the market - as we'd all be buying FBC1010's and the MFC would sit on the shelf.

The reason to buy the MFC is for the complete plug-n-play integration with the Axe models. While it's perceived value may be considered "pricey" by some, so are the Axe models. But, one gets what one pays for. I did not initially own an MFC. I SAVED for it, and used a Roland FC300 [tried an ART X15 too] for basic control (wrote wiki page on FC300 use) while waiting. The MFC is much simpler and well worth it, IMHO. My take is that if you want to use other controllers with the Axe then one has to accept/handle the programming differences/limitations that would not exist if you had an MFC. If I were Cliff, I wouldn't change that.



PS: This is solely my opinion/commentary, and is not directly tied to, or reflect any position Fractal may hold on the subject.

 

[chris]

Do any other devices have this functionality?

 

[yek]

Didn't know this functionality (MIDI toggle) exists.

It would be handy, I cannot deny that. I've run into this issue more than once, configuring the external switches on the MFC.

 

[Scrutinizer]

Well I certainly agree! I'd love to use the MFC...but I don't have $750-$800 bucks to blow on a midi controller. ha

It may just be oversight. I can't think of any disadvantages. Other companies have done it with success - I've owned Strymon and Eventide pedals that had this feature - the AxeFX isn't running out of CC messages any time soon (currently the entire range of 0-63 is set to off and 64-128 is set to on for every CC message. One of those numbers could be set to toggle), and, as you said, the AxeFX firmware is already aware of the current state of FX blocks. Seems like it would be a pretty easy change.

I'm not sure I understand the question. Toggle commands are CC messages (usually?) that are programmed into the device itself. These commands just tell the device to A/B a certain setting with a single CC message. It currently takes 2 different CC messages to turn off/on a single block in the Axe.

Not sure I am following. Your footcontroller always sends two midi messages when you tap the IA switch, one message with value = 127 for the switch down event and another message with value = 0 for the switch up event.

If that is correct, then how will you program your footcontroller to send CC values other than 0 and 127 when the IA switch is tapped?

 

[chris]

I'm assuming it just sends a single value, like 0 or any number really, and the receiving device basically toggles its state - not on/off, but just "change."

Sounds contradictory to standard midi. Are there any resources discussing this?

 

[JazzMac251]

Fractal is a small company that has 2 basic products.. the Axe-II and the MFC. The latter being a MIDI foot controller for the Axe-II (and their obsolete/archived products, the Std and Ultra). From a marketing perspective, it does not make sense to make ones primary products MIDI interface wholly compatible with other (cheaper) MIDI foot controllers on the market - as we'd all be buying FBC1010's and the MFC would sit on the shelf.

The reason to buy the MFC is for the complete plug-n-play integration with the Axe models. While it's perceived value may be considered "pricey" by some, so are the Axe models. But, one gets what one pays for. I did not initially own an MFC. I SAVED for it, and used a Roland FC300 [tried an ART X15 too] for basic control (wrote wiki page on FC300 use) while waiting. The MFC is much simpler and well worth it, IMHO. My take is that if you want to use other controllers with the Axe then one has to accept/handle the programming differences/limitations that would not exist if you had an MFC. If I were Cliff, I wouldn't change that.



PS: This is solely my opinion/commentary, and is not directly tied to, or reflect any position Fractal may hold on the subject.

So, what you're telling me is that it's fine by you if a company skips support for a very easy-to-implement feature that would make use of their product go that much smoother for their customers just to protect the exclusivity of their own accessories (not to mention that the accessory in question is one of the most expensive on the market)? Thanks for sharing, but I respectfully, vehemently disagree. That is exactly the kind of behavior that puts me off a company's products for good. I sincerely hope Fractal is NOT doing that, and I honestly don't suspect that they are.

There are plenty of good reasons to want an MFC for your Axe over any other controller. "Because Fractal makes it the only controller wherein IA switches work consistently in an intuitive manner" needn't be one of them.

Do any other devices have this functionality?

I know for a fact the Strymon Timeline uses toggle commands for some features. It actually got problematic in the case of that pedal because they ONLY programmed a toggle command for their on/off button, meaning there were no dedicated on/off commands. That was a huge PITA. They added dedicated on/off commands in a later firmware upgrade, though.

IIRC, Eventide pedals also have toggle commands for some of their pedals' features.

 

[Goldtop]

Not sure I am following. Your footcontroller always sends two midi messages when you tap the IA switch, one message with value = 127 for the switch down event and another message with value = 0 for the switch up event.

If that is correct, then how will you program your footcontroller to send CC values other than 0 and 127 when the IA switch is tapped?

Many footcontrollers (including my Rocktron All Access) can be programed to send any value you want; 0,1,2,...127 for either on or off such as a block bypass, or two points in-between such as gain settings for a drive pedal.

 

[Tone Seeker]

Do any other devices have this functionality?

My Liquid Foot Pro has a sync command that will download patch names and IA states (e.g. effect states) from the AxeFX. This is based on how I configure the switches. I may have switch 10 set to autosync chorus1 and switch 12 set to autosync delay1. When I run the sync process the Liquid Foot will set the initial state of switch 10 and 12 automatically for each preset, based on the AxeFX patch. If the AxeFX patch does NOT have that effect the LED will be off. If it has the effect, the LED is set either red (off) or green (on) based on the state of the effect in the AxeFX patch. When I later press switch 10 or 12 the Liquid Foot knows if it should be turning the effect on or off.

Works like a charm!

Terry.

 

[yek]

Sorry Terry but that's not the same as a true troggle.

 

[Rex]

Not sure I am following. Your footcontroller always sends two midi messages when you tap the IA switch, one message with value = 127 for the switch down event and another message with value = 0 for the switch up event.

If that is correct, then how will you program your footcontroller to send CC values other than 0 and 127 when the IA switch is tapped?

You wouldn't need to. With this feature, the Axe would see you stomp the footswitch, then it would execute a "change state" command: if the effect is off, it would turn on (and vice versa).

 

[Tone Seeker]

Sorry Terry but that's not the same as a true troggle.

Good point. My post is really about how the Liquid Foot works around the issue.

Terry.

 

[JazzMac251]

Not sure I am following. Your footcontroller always sends two midi messages when you tap the IA switch, one message with value = 127 for the switch down event and another message with value = 0 for the switch up event.

If that is correct, then how will you program your footcontroller to send CC values other than 0 and 127 when the IA switch is tapped?

The way I'm reading your statement, you're saying that controllers always send 2 messages for a single stomp - a switch "up" and a switch "down" message. If this was the case, IA switches wouldn't work because a single stomp would send an "on" followed immediately by an "off" command netting no change.

I have a FCB1010. From what I can tell, the controller works like so when sending CC messages: Pressing a button once activates switch 1 and primes switch 2. Pressing it again activates switch 2 and primes switch 1. In my experience, this is a common way for controllers to function (unless you have a really high-end controller) because it's the easiest way to give a single button the ability to send both on and off commands. Problem is, if your trying to turn a block off and you're using a controller that works in the way I previously described, you're going to have to send a pointless "on" command before you can send the "off" command you're shooting for. The MFC and other higher end controllers likely circumvent this issue by syncing updates within the device in real time. That is to say, if a preset turns off a block, that "off" command is sent to the controller as well so it can update the status of the corresponding switch. Otherwise you'd be in the same boat as the rest of us where your first stomp of an IA switch always turn a block on regardless of whether or not that block is ALREADY on (thus the command was useless).

If there was a toggle command on the AxeFX, then I would set my FCB1010 to only send a single CC message per stomp (e.g. only an up command), and that command would simply switch that status of the block. With toggle commands, the device in question does all the work. The controller just says "make this block the opposite of whatever status it is now" and the device figures out what that should be (which shouldn't be too hard since, as has already been stated, the AxeFX is already internally aware of the on/off status of blocks).

I'm assuming it just sends a single value, like 0 or any number really, and the receiving device basically toggles its state - not on/off, but just "change."

Sounds contradictory to standard midi. Are there any resources discussing this?

What makes this contradictory to standard midi? As I said above to Scrutinizer, the heavy lifting is done by the device. The controller just sends standard CC messages. If you want to see proof that other companies are using toggle commands, just check out the midi table of the Strymon Timeline.

You wouldn't need to. With this feature, the Axe would see you stomp the footswitch, then it would execute a "change state" command: if the effect is off, it would turn on (and vice versa).

Exactly.

 

[chris]

The way I'm reading your statement, you're saying that controllers always send 2 messages for a single stomp - a switch "up" and a switch "down" message. If this was the case, IA switches wouldn't work because a single stomp would send an "on" followed immediately by an "off" command netting no change.

That's a "momentary" style switch. But you are thinking a bit too literal about the actual switch.

Momentary means when the actual switch is up, it sends the Off value (usually 0). When you press it down, it sends the On value (usually 127). Then you release the switch and it's back to Off.

Toggle style switches "remember" the last value, and that's usually how most IA switches are used. It doesn't matter when the switch is "up." Press it down and it sends the On command. Release it up and the On command is still engaged. Press the button again and the Off command is sent. Again, the "up" state of the switch doesn't matter.

I'm sure some switches on devices can be programmed with multiple commands, not just two. But since most can only have two values, many reserve this for an On/Off function, and it's why some people close-mindedly assume that all switches are On/Off only.

It could just be a "Go" switch to step through scenes on a digital mixer, etc.

It really depends on the unit being controlled and it's functions.

Regardless, since On/Off is really the standard for turning effects On/Off, that's probably why the Axe uses that protocol and not a toggle system. Could it be integrated? I guess. Sounds difficult.

I'm still wondering if there is any Midi spec on this toggle thing? Any documentation?

 

[Scrutinizer]

You wouldn't need to. With this feature, the Axe would see you stomp the footswitch, then it would execute a "change state" command: if the effect is off, it would turn on (and vice versa).

The way I'm reading your statement, you're saying that controllers always send 2 messages for a single stomp - a switch "up" and a switch "down" message. If this was the case, IA switches wouldn't work because a single stomp would send an "on" followed immediately by an "off" command netting no change.

I have a FCB1010. From what I can tell, the controller works like so when sending CC messages: Pressing a button once activates switch 1 and primes switch 2. Pressing it again activates switch 2 and primes switch 1. In my experience, this is a common way for controllers to function (unless you have a really high-end controller) because it's the easiest way to give a single button the ability to send both on and off commands. Problem is, if your trying to turn a block off and you're using a controller that works in the way I previously described, you're going to have to send a pointless "on" command before you can send the "off" command you're shooting for. The MFC and other higher end controllers likely circumvent this issue by syncing updates within the device in real time. That is to say, if a preset turns off a block, that "off" command is sent to the controller as well so it can update the status of the corresponding switch. Otherwise you'd be in the same boat as the rest of us where your first stomp of an IA switch always turn a block on regardless of whether or not that block is ALREADY on (thus the command was useless).

If there was a toggle command on the AxeFX, then I would set my FCB1010 to only send a single CC message per stomp (e.g. only an up command), and that command would simply switch that status of the block. With toggle commands, the device in question does all the work. The controller just says "make this block the opposite of whatever status it is now" and the device figures out what that should be (which shouldn't be too hard since, as has already been stated, the AxeFX is already internally aware of the on/off status of blocks).

OK, I understand. Thanks for clarifying. And I can now see how that feature would be useful to many users.

 

[Rex]

I'm still wondering if there is any Midi spec on this toggle thing? Any documentation?

It's not a MIDI thing. It's all about how the device reacts to incoming MIDI commands, and that's an internal decision, independent of MIDI.

My GP-100 had a similar toggle feature that you could select as an option per preset (and per attachment, if I remember correctly). That device came out in 1995, so it can't take too much horsepower to pull it off. I miss that functionality.

 

[shasha]

I am pretty sure that I brought this up years ago with the Ultra. The only downside is that you don't have the ability to have the LED's indicate the status accurately. And to be honest the $10 I spent on the Uno chip for my ancient and battle tested FCB1010 does just about everything I need it to do and works well with the AxeFXII.

I can see the usefulness, but I do think that it is a bit non-standard. I wouldn't complain if it was in there, that's for sure.