Dialing OUT the digital Axe-Fx midrange

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drawn said:
No, I'm asking if or why the MV would always be so high up in its default state that it makes every amp honk like crazy. ;)
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You need the A-lister card to receive the honk free firmware! ;)

If you are not a n00b, I find the question a little weird for the following reasons...
  • You can probably discover the answer for yourself in seconds (load a few models until one is not high)
  • You being a studio and guitar person I expect you to know not all amps depend on high MV to sound best
  • Pretty sure Cliff has commented many times people are using too high MV (kind of general knowledge by now)
Of course, I guess some other parameter may give you the impression of too high MV, like when Input Trim is too high for your guitar.
 
When in doubt change the IR. Is the IR length the same as the Kemper? I've found IR length, mic choice, and room where the IR was shot is what changes the tone the most. I find the dynacabs to be less boxy than other IRs but to each their own.
 
Shask said:
he Master Volume should never be higher than 2.5 - 2.8 or so for heavy modern metal sounds. It sounds gross above that.
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That's not entirely accurate. It all depends on the amp model. What you CAN do instead is pay attention to the headroom meter in Axe Edit. Try to keep the headroom meter as far away from 0.0 as possible. To my ears, heavy tones sound best when they hit around -3.0 on average on the headroom meter. But, that rule is also not always accurate as some amps simply won't go higher than -5 unless you absolutely gun the MV (for example, see CCV 2C). While some others sound more alive when the headroom meter does hit 0.0, but is not compressed all the time.
 
Saarang Narayan said:
That's not entirely accurate. It all depends on the amp model. What you CAN do instead is pay attention to the headroom meter in Axe Edit. Try to keep the headroom meter as far away from 0.0 as possible. To my ears, heavy tones sound best when they hit around -3.0 on average on the headroom meter. But, that rule is also not always accurate as some amps simply won't go higher than -5 unless you absolutely gun the MV (for example, see CCV 2C). While some others sound more alive when the headroom meter does hit 0.0, but is not compressed all the time.
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Prime example is the Cornfed/Cornford amp! Sounds awesome. Gotta crank the MV but keep the gain low. Sounds monstrous
 
Saarang Narayan said:
That's not entirely accurate. It all depends on the amp model. What you CAN do instead is pay attention to the headroom meter in Axe Edit. Try to keep the headroom meter as far away from 0.0 as possible. To my ears, heavy tones sound best when they hit around -3.0 on average on the headroom meter. But, that rule is also not always accurate as some amps simply won't go higher than -5 unless you absolutely gun the MV (for example, see CCV 2C). While some others sound more alive when the headroom meter does hit 0.0, but is not compressed all the time.
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Indeed, totally depends on the model. The (H)BE sounds great at high MV values.
 
Saarang Narayan said:
That's not entirely accurate. It all depends on the amp model. What you CAN do instead is pay attention to the headroom meter in Axe Edit. Try to keep the headroom meter as far away from 0.0 as possible. To my ears, heavy tones sound best when they hit around -3.0 on average on the headroom meter. But, that rule is also not always accurate as some amps simply won't go higher than -5 unless you absolutely gun the MV (for example, see CCV 2C). While some others sound more alive when the headroom meter does hit 0.0, but is not compressed all the time.
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It is pretty much true for the types of tones he is talking about. The 5150s, Rectos, etc.... Very specific type of tone.
 
Shask said:
Cliff brings up a good point I forgot earlier. The Master Volume should never be higher than 2.5 - 2.8 or so for heavy modern metal sounds. It sounds gross above that.
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Here’s a video of THE amp masters, James Brown and Dave Friedman, talking all things tube amp tone, where they go on to talk about with their designs the Master Volume is just for volume, not for tone. It’s just there to make it louder, not impart tonal characteristics.

 
biggness said:
Here’s a video of THE amp masters, James Brown and Dave Friedman, talking all things tube amp tone, where they go on to talk about with their designs the Master Volume is just for volume, not for tone. It’s just there to make it louder, not impart tonal characteristics.

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It happens on real amps also. I always remember this old video. This Triple Recto just sounds awful once the master is past about 10 o'clock on the master.

 
The stock 5153 preset (#027) Scene 2 (for 5153 100W blue) has its MV set to 5 FWIW. Is that too high? That very clearly is a high gain rhythm preset. The 50W Blue in that same preset has its MV set to 6
 
prakhar1989 said:
The stock 5153 preset (#027) Scene 2 (for 5153 100W blue) has its MV set to 5 FWIW. Is that too high? That very clearly is a high gain rhythm preset. The 50W Blue in that same preset has its MV set to 6
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That preset is pretty low gain, so it's not really comparable in this situation.
 
Not trying to add insult to injury, but I do not feel restricted by the first post. I’m going to say what I want anyway.
I LOVE my axe fx. I sold every other piece of gear that I had because all it does is collect dust. Sound guys say that they have never had it this easy before because they feel like they don’t have to do anything with my sound. Musicians in the audience take pictures of my pedalboard extravaganza (rjm gt22 + 4 cc pedals) and the 5HE rack with the axe and the wireless. They want to buy my gear, they want to know exactly how I get my sounds. NEVER has anyone said it was boxy, honkey, midrangy, or whatever.

I am a guitarist, not a sound guy. I want good sound and honestly, I just don’t care how it’s made. I want to play and I rather play than spend my time programming. I had a learning curve when I bought the axe fx 2. Couldn’t get near the sounds that I wanted. Invested in better monitors. That did a lot. Then I bought a presets pack. There it was! @fremen saved me. Lol. Of course I tweak. But only like I would on an amp or pedal. I copy and paste what I like. I bought presets from several ppl since then. Hit and miss, but I collected and built the presets that I like and love.

I do not hear the honkeyness, and certainly not all the time. I do not appreciate the superlatives like extreme, very, etc. You present it as a fact. Although there are members that recognize your comment, most of us do not. In your opening statement you tell us that you are a heavyweight in all aspects. Well, maybe, just maybe, your talents lie somewhere else. I had a colleague that, in a discussion, threw at me that he had been doing his work like that for 30 years. My response was that maybe he had been doing it wrong all that time. That your opinion is that ‘your way’ has always been the best way, doesn’t make it more than an opinion.

My advice would be to try other people’s presets. See how they work for you. More or less honkey? Try different speakers. Start with the most basic preset and build it from there. I believe Sinmix makes metal presets only. If memory servers correctly he also has a studio and mixed bands. His demos don’t sound honkey at all. Maybe he can help you out.

Good luck

Harm
 
What I hear in the Kemper is that there's a midrange bump that really helps it to stand out sonically. That could be a mid bump, or scooped low mids, or a combination of a bunch of things.

I did just get another Kemper to mess around with and am trying to figure out how to dial in EQ on the Fractal that makes it similar to the Kemper. I'm curious if I can apply that as a preset to make it similar and then use all the Fractal effects but get that good midrange cut.
 
To OP:
I don't know if this will help but I always adjust the power tube bias on pretty much every amp I try, mostly marshall style amps.
If the % is accurate on the Amp Block, then IMHO most need to be raised a bit. For example, an EL34 amp should be closer to around 70%. To me, this makes a big difference in the tone. I also do some virtual tube rolling to find what works best. In a nutshell, I do the same thing as I do with real amps, and I find the Fractal reacts spot on like a real amp would while doing these things.
 
biggness said:
Here’s a video of THE amp masters, James Brown and Dave Friedman, talking all things tube amp tone, where they go on to talk about with their designs the Master Volume is just for volume, not for tone. It’s just there to make it louder, not impart tonal characteristics.
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I didn't watch the video, because I don't have three-plus hours to locate the spot you're referring to. But the master volume does affect the tone of the amp. It's unavoidable.

At low master volume, the power amp is running clean. Most people would describe such a tone as "sterile." But as you turn up the master volume, the power amp starts to distort. The more you turn it up, the more it distorts. And that will definitely change your tone. :)
 
Jarick said:
What I hear in the Kemper is that there's a midrange bump that really helps it to stand out sonically. That could be a mid bump, or scooped low mids, or a combination of a bunch of things.

I did just get another Kemper to mess around with and am trying to figure out how to dial in EQ on the Fractal that makes it similar to the Kemper. I'm curious if I can apply that as a preset to make it similar and then use all the Fractal effects but get that good midrange cut.
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What the Kemper is doing is multiband compression. Use the Multibamd Compressor block to mimic this.
 
In regards to those Music with Marky clips in the original post. I believe he often states he just loads up an amp model and leaves it as is. I don't think he messes with the EQ but I could be wrong.

However, some amps all at noon will sound not great and may not be how the Kemper captured/profiled the reference amp being compared
 
Rex said:
I didn't watch the video, because I don't have three-plus hours to locate the spot you're referring to. But the master volume does affect the tone of the amp. It's unavoidable.

At low master volume, the power amp is running clean. Most people would describe such a tone as "sterile." But as you turn up the master volume, the power amp starts to distort. The more you turn it up, the more it distorts. And that will definitely change your tone. :)
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I’m just relaying the message from the man himself. He says the power amp is clean all the way up to 9 o’clock, then there’s no volume increase, only power tube distortion.

99.99999% of players aren’t getting it to 9 o’clock. 7 o’clock is (1) is insanely loud.

He also said he put in an audio tape pot on the master volume to make it more manageable and EVH thought it was “weaker” because it didn’t get as loud as quickly. He tried to explain to him that it’s the same max volume, but just more useable at quiet volumes and EVH told him it isn’t a g*damn practice amp, so he changed it back lol
 
Regarding master volume: I never knew how much cranking the master volume changes the overall tonal balance until I discovered it by accident. I then recorded a looped sample through my JVM 410H on 10 different master volume levels using a reactive loadbox and compared the result using match EQs to see what happened to the bass, mids and heights. My used-to tone was a little scooped in the mids and the more I turned up MV, the more bass and heights gor compressed. This effect started to happen at very low settings already, so there was already a significant difference between bedroom level and MV2. Considering what Cliff wrote and that many amps start with the MV around 4-5ish when you load them up in your preset, I'm not surprised the mids stick out to one's ears. On real amps the amp gets louder as you crank the MV and I can imagine that fletcher-munson "compensates" for some of that compression that's happening while the modellers are listened to at the same bedroom level mostly. Might be something to consider as well...
 
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