Dialing OUT the digital Axe-Fx midrange

[Rex]

I’m just relaying the message from the man himself. He says the power amp is clean all the way up to 9 o’clock, then there’s no volume increase, only power tube distortion.

That's the opposite of what you wrote in your previous post. Clean all the way up to 9 o'clock, and no volume increase after that? That's typical of most master volume knobs. For most such amps, 3/4 of the range of the master volume knob has little or no effect on volume — it's all about tone.

99.99999% of players aren’t getting it to 9 o’clock. 7 o’clock is (1) is insanely loud.

Pretty much 100% of players who gig with it are turning it up beyond 7 o'clock.

He also said he put in an audio tape pot on the master volume to make it more manageable and EVH thought it was “weaker” because it didn’t get as loud as quickly. He tried to explain to him that it’s the same max volume, but just more useable at quiet volumes and EVH told him it isn’t a g*damn practice amp, so he changed it back lol

That's pretty much what @FractalAudio did for us way back when — he made the Master Volume parameter more useful.

This whole situation is caused by volume wars in music stores. Amp manufacturers use linear-taper pots for their master volume knobs. That makes all the action happen at around 3 on the dial. There's no extra volume beyond that. Just more distortion.

This is so Johnny Guitar can try out the amp and say, "Wow! This amp is super loud, and it's only on three! It must be really powerful! I'll buy this one!" Just like EVH thought in your story.

 

[biggness]

That's the opposite of what you wrote in your previous post. Clean all the way up to 9 o'clock, and no volume increase after that? That's typical of most master volume knobs. For most such amps, 3/4 of the range of the master volume knob has little or no effect on volume — it's all about tone.


Pretty much 100% of players who gig with it are turning it up beyond 7 o'clock.


That's pretty much what @FractalAudio did for us way back when — he made the Master Volume parameter more useful.

This whole situation is caused by volume wars in music stores. Amp manufacturers use linear-taper pots for their master volume knobs. That makes all the action happen at around 3 on the dial. There's no extra volume beyond that. Just more distortion.

This is so Johnny Guitar can try out the amp and say, "Wow! This amp is super loud, and it's only on three! It must be really powerful! I'll buy this one!" Just like EVH thought in your story.

That’s not opposite of what I said.

I said he said the master volume imparts no tonal characteristics and only makes the amp louder.

Then went on to say once you reach max volume output the power amp starts distorting, yielding tonal changes.

Then went on to say that even 1 is insanely loud, so it’s likely that most guitarists aren’t making it to max volume before being Bill Goldberg speared off the stage by the sound guy. I have the amp, 2 is about as loud as I ever gotten it, and that was only me being cheeky and not because I wanted or needed more volume.

So essentially, the 5150’s master volume doesn’t impart tonal changes in realistic volume applications, it just makes the amp louder. Louder than what most are capable of utilizing.

This is all information the designer of the amp said, not me. If you have issue with it, contact him and tell him you know better. I’m only sharing the information for those that may find it helpful.

For someone so eager to dissect my post line by line, your reading between the lines leaves much to be desired for.

 

[unix-guy]

I said he said the master volume imparts no tonal characteristics and only makes the amp louder.

Then went on to say once you reach max volume output the power amp starts distorting, yielding tonal changes.

No you didn't. You only said the first part:

Master Volume is just for volume, not for tone. It’s just there to make it louder, not impart tonal characteristics.

Regardless of what you said, Rex is correct.

Then went on to say that even 1 is insanely loud, so it’s likely that most guitarists aren’t making it to max volume

Except when they're using a modeler and they can turn that MV right up without feeling the pain...

And which is also why the previous poster said you want to keep the MV low (2-3) on many high gain amps - because they aren't designed to sound good when the power amp goes into distortion... And that's exactly what it does when it's not getting louder.

 

[biggness]

No you didn't. You only said the first part:



Regardless of what you said, Rex is correct.



Except when they're using a modeler and they can turn that MV right up without feeling the pain...

And which is also why the previous poster said you want to keep the MV low (2-3) on many high gain amps - because they aren't designed to sound good when the power amp goes into distortion... And that's exactly what it does when it's not getting louder.

Is that not what I said? Lol

And I was agreeing with the guy I initially replied to, so not really sure what you’re getting at with that.

You’re getting hung up on semantics instead of substance. My original point was clear to anyone who’s actually spent time with a 5150, myself included since I own the dang thang: the master volume does not impart tonal changes in the typical playing range, from 0 up to around 9 o’clock. It’s just pushing volume. Past that is where you get power tube clipping, and sure, tonal changes begin, but that level is unusably loud for most players outside of a full arena stage or studio cranked situation, which is why I didn’t spell it out like a children’s book.

It’s like saying a Corvette handles differently after 140 mph. Sure, that’s true, but most people will never hit that speed, so it’s not relevant to the average driving experience. Same thing here. The tonal shift doesn’t show up until you’re well into volume levels most people won’t ever use.

This isn’t just my observation, it’s directly from James Brown, the designer of the 5150, and backed by Dave Friedman in the video. If you want to argue with the people who literally built the amp, be my guest. But maybe consider the difference between quoting experts and flexing forum contrarianism.

 

[Rex]

Peace, brother. I meant no personal attack.

I said he said the master volume imparts no tonal characteristics and only makes the amp louder.

Then went on to say once you reach max volume output the power amp starts distorting, yielding tonal changes.

Those are opposite things stated in different posts. That's all.

 

[biggness]

Peace, brother. I meant no personal attack.


Those are opposite things stated in different posts. That's all.

My apologies, I should have initially clarified “in the usable volume range.”

 

[Rex]

My apologies, I should have initially clarified “in the usable volume range.”

All good.

Still, I can only partly agree. If you're playing a 200-seat house next to a gonzo drummer, you're going to be turned up past 1. A practical volume for one situation isn't a practical volume for all situations.

But you're right that in many situations, you can't push a high-wattage amp into that sweet saturation.

 

[Jarick]

So I’m curious what others are doing. I tend to keep MV around where it was by default if not bump it up a little on some amps like Friedman’s, shooting for about -12 to -10 db output in the amp block and around 0 db on the output meter.

Are others running MV lower on higher gain amps?

On my JJ Junior I have it into a Suhr reactive load box so can experiment with different levels. I tend to like it just fine at about 9:00 honestly. Maybe I should start there on the amp model.

 

[Luca9583]

@drawn could we hear some clips of your current tone in a rough mix and some links to your music, and also some examples of other tones and music that are in the ballpark of what you're trying to achieve?

I also use Lundgren M7s and these are superb pickups for that low midrange growl.

I would say that a lot of the Amp models in the Axe III sound great with their default settings when you first call up a model, but ultimately the choice of cab IR will have the biggest impact on the overall voicing/eq that you're hearing.

Also, have you tried using the Axe III into a real power amp and cab (with cab modelling disabled) and comparing that to a tube preamp or other head? It sounds and feels just like a tube amp in that scenario.

Another trick is to change the tonestack of an Amp model that you like. For example, the Plexi tonestack and the Angle Severe tonestack are almost polar opposites in the midrange, and can be very effective for re-voicing an amp that you feel either has too much or too little midrange.

"Midrange" is also a very subjective word in music and audio, but I'm guessing that you probably like a more scooped sound, so look for some more scooped sounding cab IRs, specifically the mic choice in a given IR.

Hearing some clips would be really useful.

 

[sprint]

So I’m curious what others are doing. I tend to keep MV around where it was by default if not bump it up a little on some amps like Friedman’s, shooting for about -12 to -10 db output in the amp block and around 0 db on the output meter.

Are others running MV lower on higher gain amps?

On my JJ Junior I have it into a Suhr reactive load box so can experiment with different levels. I tend to like it just fine at about 9:00 honestly. Maybe I should start there on the amp model.

• In Axfx, I listen to the model with MV set so that the headroom monitor stays below 0, then I listen to the model with MV set to clip on the monitor. Whichever I like best I keep.
• On my physical amps' L/O from attenuator / load box: same as above except I don't have the visual luxury of the headroom monitor.
• On my physical amps not thru load box, I set MV for correct actual audible volume, which essentially removes the capability to set MV just for tonal purposes. If luck is on my side (rare, but happens), the MV setting sounds best tonally with the amp set at the actual audible volume I prefer.

 

[Necr0lancer]

Everyone is talking about turning down the MV to get rid of the midrange honk, which is accurate. Totally agree with that but the OP is saying there's a inherent midrange honk with the AXE3 regardless of the settings and I just disagree with that. Especially with the videos he provided as evidence.

In regards to those Music with Marky clips in the original post. I believe he often states he just loads up an amp model and leaves it as is. I don't think he messes with the EQ but I could be wrong.

However, some amps all at noon will sound not great and may not be how the Kemper captured/profiled the reference amp being compared

This is the issue I have with the original post. He shares two videos that compare the Kemper and Axe3 with the same IR. And they DO sound different in the video because Marky is using the factory presets for both units with, likely, no adjustments. The factory presets for both units are going to sound different because the presets are based on someone's own preference to how the amp sounds. Even if you have a real amp and two people adjusting the EQ to their liking, it's going to sound a little different. I think the videos are misleading af.

There's a plethora of videos online that compare the Axe3 to real amps and they sound damn near identical with some tweaking for both. I mention this because isn't that the point of these units? To sound like real amps? Real amps can have a midrange honk too. Just dial it out or change the mic or cab. Or EQ it. I can share some comparison videos of axe 3 and real high gain amps if requested. I watched one yesterday comparing the 5150 III with many current modelers. The Axe 3, Kemper, and Fender Pro all sounded virtually identical.

Of course tweaking the EQ is involved, who doesn't tweak the EQ? Even OP was like "don't give me beginner tips like using an EQ block.". But then someone suggested using the preamp emulation in the cab block and OP turned down the mid knob and says it sounds great! Lol. Bro get out of here

And the Axe3 is used on many professional recordings and live shows from big time artists. Metallica. Devin Townsend. Dave Murray. John Petrucci. Mayyybee these artists have issues with this supposed "midrange honk" and if they do, they seem to have a great solution because they're still using the units lol.

 

[Brewce]

I have no dog in this fight, but...

Is this related? (EVH not liking midrange )



I'm also reminded of Jay Graydon claiming the amp has to be right for you at the source -- you want to avoid EQing it on the board.

"Everything about an amp to me is the mids... because you can’t add mids later and make it sound right -- you have to have mids come from the amp. I prefer a much more mid-rangey tone and I can add highs to it. You can always brighten up a mid-rangey tone, but when you add EQ on an amp in the control room -- EQ after the fact -- it never sounds like amp EQ. When you add in the mid-range at 800... it just doesn’t sound right!"

 

[JiveTurkey]

Who uses a factory preset WITHOUT CHANGING ANY OF THE PARAMETERS?

 

[shep]

Regarding mids - this is from a Pete Thorn Rock Crusher Recording video. Playing through a Marshall with a LP, this is the eq he used on the attenuator to achieve the tone in the vid. Seems the struggle is real. Side note - Pete and Michael Nielsen write the best music for demos on YT imho..

 

[jaycal6]

Regarding mids - this is from a Pete Thorn Rock Crusher Recording video. Playing through a Marshall with a LP, this is the eq he used on the attenuator to achieve the tone in the vid. Seems the struggle is real. Side note - Pete and Michael Nielsen write the best music for demos on YT imho..

Seems like the EQ is there to simulate the EQ curve of different speakers, though. So if you're using an IR you're already doing that.

 

[Budda]

Would be great to hear what OP has recorded now.

 

[raymitchell]

Lundgren M7 right now.

For what it's worth, I have a Lundgren M8 in my Ibanez M80M baritone 8 string guitar and a Lundgren M6 in my Schecter Banshee Mach 6. The M8 works pretty well across various amp models in the Axe Fx 3, but has a bit of an odd hump/bump in the mids/upper mids that can get harsh. As for the Lundgren M6 in the Schecter, it tends to get a bit quacky and also has a bit of an odd honk in the upper mids, much more pronounced with the 25.5 scale and in standard tuning. As nice as teh Schecter is, I don't play it because of the M6 in the bridge. However, that'll change soon because I'm swapping the M6 out for a different pickup. No idea which pickup I want to try yet, but the M6 has gotta go.

 

[Saarang Narayan]

Here's a 5150 with three different Master Volume settings. The first one has MV at 3 (my preferred setting); second is MV at 1 (quite a low setting but still sounds pretty good; and the final one is MV at 5 (which, IIRC, is the defalut value). The clips are all normalised in the Axe FX as well as the DAW so the dB level is exactly the same. Any differences you may perceive are purely because of EQ changes. There are no other changes to the preset. I could have used wilder MV settings, but I think this demonstrates the effect of a higher vs a lower MV value pretty well.



P.s.: there is a TS boosting the front end of the amp, and I just realised that it may probably make the differences less dramatic than simply running the amp model on its own. There definitely is an audible difference in the clips tho!

 

[Mongillo19]

Here's a 5150 with three different Master Volume settings. The first one has MV at 3 (my preferred setting); second is MV at 1 (quite a low setting but still sounds pretty good; and the final one is MV at 5 (which, IIRC, is the defalut value). The clips are all normalised in the Axe FX as well as the DAW so the dB level is exactly the same. Any differences you may perceive are purely because of EQ changes. There are no other changes to the preset. I could have used wilder MV settings, but I think this demonstrates the effect of a higher vs a lower MV value pretty well.



P.s.: there is a TS boosting the front end of the amp, and I just realised that it may probably make the differences less dramatic than simply running the amp model on its own. There definitely is an audible difference in the clips tho!

Are all the EQs at noon or? But yes, that 5 MV sounds super honky

 

[Saarang Narayan]

Are all the EQs at noon or? But yes, that 5 MV sounds super honky

BMT at 5-5-6. Fairly noon-ish, I'd say...