Can't tell if it's my mix or my tone

The whole mix needs a high shelf boost of maybe 6db or more to take that blanket off the speakers, you need to low pass filter the guitars maybe at 90hz and the bass guitar maybe 35-40hz, I would use a side chain compressor on the bass being keyed from the kick drum and I would try and make the guitars as wide as you can. I wouldn't put any compression on the guitars, theyre over compressed already but they could do with some mid and high end boosting. Try cutting the bass guitar 6db round 250-300ish. Turn the overheads up if you can with a highshelf boost.

Sounds great though man, keep at it. The ATH-M50s are a great closed back headphone that are fairly cheap and are great at hearing low end issues on, if you having trouble with room modes and nulls.
 
BigD1977 said:
Which elements? Which drum sound do you want to emulate? Which guitar sound? DO you want the bass rumbly and powerful and distinct or melded with the guitar sound? The overall sound is more of a mastering question once the mix is done, even though one does affect the other. Without fundamental decisions made (and stuck to) you will waste time experimenting more than crafting.

These are the important and overlooked questions by most people and are the ones that result in so many unfinished projects on every musicians hard drive.
Click to expand...

If I had to chose a mix style I'd have to go with Scenes from a Memory. It had so much warmth and detail that just plain sounded beautiful.

As far as the drums go, I'm leaning towards buying either Metal Machine or SSD4. It's a toss up but Metal Machine has the bigger sounds that would work best with my mix. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Also, aside from the compressor in the guitar's preset (which is just before the amp block) there is no compression on the guitars in the session.

EDIT:

Here's an updated mix:
 
Last edited:
If your up for it, post up the stems and we can all have a crack at mixing them, post the midi drum map aswell
 
MetalGarret said:
If I had to chose a mix style I'd have to go with Scenes from a Memory. It had so much warmth and detail that just plain sounded beautiful.

As far as the drums go, I'm leaning towards buying either Metal Machine or SSD4. It's a toss up but Metal Machine has the bigger sounds that would work best with my mix. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Also, aside from the compressor in the guitar's preset (which is just before the amp block) there is no compression on the guitars in the session.

EDIT:

Here's an updated mix:
Click to expand...


Heavy mixes start with the drums. I wasn't really thinking of any particular software as you can get very heavy useable sounds from any drum plugin that is worth it's salt. Get those right and you will have a good foundation. Layer a couple of snares and scoop the hell out of the kick. Parallel compression will add power to the kit sound as a whole. Scoop the OH mics also to leave room for the busiest place in the spectrum which is the mids. Experiment with the pre delay control on your reverbs so the sonic wash from it doesn't meld with the snare impact. The attach control on your drums is your best friend. Too short and it will cut the initial transient. You can also use a transient designer plugin to mould the sound of the initial hit. Release times for the resonance of the toms, but it's a careful balance to get a nice release and one that doesn't interfere with the low end too much. I take it you are familiar with parallel compression, and bussing to an aux bus to get a room reverb sound? I usually have a stem for the whole drum mix that is compressed by an 1176 and mixed in to taste, a second stem for the drum mix reverb (without kick.... don't want to muddy that up), another for the snare (compressed, EQd and reverbed), one for the bass which has a compressor whose sidechain i/p is being triggered by the kick (really tends to tighten up the bottom end without losing impact).

Regarding the bass, stemming this with the guitars for a light multiband compression can tighten the sound. Regarding tracking, for heavy music double is a must panned 75% L&R. Some guys use another centre track, and when I do I tend to compress this along with other centre instruments such as leads and vocals so that nothing in the centre fights while retaining the balance of the stereo field. Some go 4 tracks each side, but if you do, bear in mind how the gain will add and make the sound muddier. Less gain + less tracks = more precision. If you want to go more, then try a very light gain sound underneath the main guitar sound and mix that to taste for definition.

I like your guitar sound. It's middy, has pick attack and that crunch that I like.

Also, if you find that too much compression takes the life out of a sound, ease up on the threshold and ratios and use automation instead. A sound compressed by 2:1 that is further compressed at 10:1 will have an ultimate compression ration of 20:1, not 12:1. Ratios are multiplicative, not additive, so it's easier to go overboard. To that end, I always like to mix with some form of gentle multiband across my master bus when crafting the sound, taking it off when I detect pumping or the life leaving any sound.

It's a bit of a shotgun approach unfortunately.
 
I'm familiar with how to set up parallel compression but was never sure of it's benefits. You basically sub mix the drums together on a bus then place a send to an aux with the compressor on it and adjust to taste. I never really practiced with it though so maybe ill try that again.

On the mix i just posted I have a compressor sided chained on the bass being triggered by the kick already. I hear the kick better now because of this.

I was aiming for another drum kit because the truth is i never felt the NY avatar kit was going to work with this project. But I was willing to stick it out for this first album. Now I'm not so sure because now that I hear the demos from Metal Machine, I could be doing so much better. I'm willing to spend the money if I feel I'm good for it.
 
MetalGarret said:
I'm familiar with how to set up parallel compression but was never sure of it's benefits. You basically sub mix the drums together on a bus then place a send to an aux with the compressor on it and adjust to taste. I never really practiced with it though so maybe ill try that again.

On the mix i just posted I have a compressor sided chained on the bass being triggered by the kick already. I hear the kick better now because of this.

I was aiming for another drum kit because the truth is i never felt the NY avatar kit was going to work with this project. But I was willing to stick it out for this first album. Now I'm not so sure because now that I hear the demos from Metal Machine, I could be doing so much better. I'm willing to spend the money if I feel I'm good for it.
Click to expand...

You don't have to submix the drums first. You can take a send from each individual channel and send that to a compressed auxiliary. The compression should be quite heavy handed and pumping (I love an 1176 with all ratio buttons pushed for this), and then blend to taste. If you use a pre fade aux, you can fade the drums independently of the compression (using it as a special effect). By using a feed from the individual tracks you can control the amount of each individual drum in the parallel bus without affecting a stems mix. Don't be afraid to use a tape emulator to drive the bus into distortion either. Experiment. :)

For samples I like the Metal Foundry, BFD 3 and DFH. The only problem you can run into is the (what is becoming) rather generic sound of the kits. If that suits, then that's cool. I like drums a little messy rather than pristine with huge reverbs, but I was born in the 70's and grew up listening to those huge Mutt Lange drums and can only associate them with Def Leppard et al. :) Different strokes however! :)
 
BigD1977 said:
You don't have to submix the drums first. You can take a send from each individual channel and send that to a compressed auxiliary. The compression should be quite heavy handed and pumping (I love an 1176 with all ratio buttons pushed for this), and then blend to taste. If you use a pre fade aux, you can fade the drums independently of the compression (using it as a special effect). By using a feed from the individual tracks you can control the amount of each individual drum in the parallel bus without affecting a stems mix. Don't be afraid to use a tape emulator to drive the bus into distortion either. Experiment. :)

For samples I like the Metal Foundry, BFD 3 and DFH. The only problem you can run into is the (what is becoming) rather generic sound of the kits. If that suits, then that's cool. I like drums a little messy rather than pristine with huge reverbs, but I was born in the 70's and grew up listening to those huge Mutt Lange drums and can only associate them with Def Leppard et al. :) Different strokes however! :)
Click to expand...

HAHA yeah I grew up with bands like Metallica, Pantera, Dream Theater and Fear Factory. So I love aggressive and huge drum sounds. I'll do what I can when I get home from work today but I may just get Metal Machine.

Now onto bass. I actually have a more clearer idea what how I want the bass to sound.

Parallel Processing - Bass - YouTube (@1:32)

I've always liked this kind of tone but wasn't sure how to get it with the Axe FX. Matter of fact, I only know of like 3 or 4 bass amps on the damn thing because I can't tell what amps are meant for bass!
 
MetalGarret said:
HAHA yeah I grew up with bands like Metallica, Pantera, Dream Theater and Fear Factory. So I love aggressive and huge drum sounds. I'll do what I can when I get home from work today but I may just get Metal Machine.

Now onto bass. I actually have a more clearer idea what how I want the bass to sound.

Parallel Processing - Bass - YouTube (@1:32)

I've always liked this kind of tone but wasn't sure how to get it with the Axe FX. Matter of fact, I only know of like 3 or 4 bass amps on the damn thing because I can't tell what amps are meant for bass!
Click to expand...

The drums in that video are NY Avatar as well and seem to be mixed fairly similarly to your track, but it works a lot better in a laid back rock context. What are you using for bass at the moment? Plugin or real? The type of bass used make a ton more difference than what guitar you use.

In your latest mix the snare and kick are still buried behind everything else. Personally I always start with putting a compressor on the snare with a fairly fast attack time start at around 40ms and slide it up and down to find a good sweet spot. This will turn the snare from a big smoosh into a quick crack. You'll need to increase the level/add gain after this to get the desired effect. Then I'll send the snare to a reverb of some sort, just use a snare preset to get started and blend to taste.

I was gonna write out some stuff about kicks but here, have this link instead: Sneapsters EQ + Comp recipes. - Ultimate Metal Forum all the drum info you should need to get you started. It's a bit messy to read as it's just a cut and paste from several forum members but all pretty good advice.

Also change the beaters on the kick drum to plastic.

And try the GMS maple/ash for the snare, I think it might get you closer to the SFAM sound.
 
Ok imma figure that out as soon as i can cause i really want to see what someone can do with what I've got.

Tomorrow morning I'm goin at it again in my studio and try the ideas mentioned here. thanks to all who chimed in!
 


Ok. I went ahead and added another layer of guitar on each side, boosted some highs and gave the S1 Imager some spread.

Adjusted the bass EQ for a little more coverage on the low end and made some changes on the distortions characteristics and level. Left the side-chained comp as it was.

Adjusted drums verb to be a little less muddy. Also lowered the room mic track a bit.

Added parallel compression to the drums. They sound bigger.

How's it now?
 
You mentioned at first having trouble getting the bass and kick to blend well and not fight each other.
Not sure if anybody else mentioned this yet; but have you tried a side-chain compressor setup for the bass?

For example; set up the kick as the input signal to the compressor on the bass track.
That way; the bass notes in between the kicks will come through but will be dialed back by the side-chain compressor with every kick hit to keep things from becoming too boomy.
In essence, the compressor on the bass track would be "listening" to the kick drum and using that to turn down the bass as needed.
 
Guitar74 said:
You mentioned at first having trouble getting the bass and kick to blend well and not fight each other.
Not sure if anybody else mentioned this yet; but have you tried a side-chain compressor setup for the bass?

For example; set up the kick as the input signal to the compressor on the bass track.
That way; the bass notes in between the kicks will come through but will be dialed back by the side-chain compressor with every kick hit to keep things from becoming too boomy.
In essence, the compressor on the bass track would be "listening" to the kick drum and using that to turn down the bass as needed.
Click to expand...

I've already done this. :( I hear the kick better than I did before. You think it could still need an adjustment?
 
It's sounding better now compared to the first mix. Sounds like you cut down on the lows on the rhythm guitars, which is good.

I can hear the kick in the mix, but to me the kick seems a little low in level.

If your reverb effects sound muddy, try rolling off some of the lows in the reverb (if your reverb effects have that capability).
If not, you could put the reverb on a blended aux track but put an EQ filter in front of the reverb to roll off some lows.

What I would associate as "mud" for guitar or bass is around the 275Hz to 400Hz range.
Try filtering a little bit more in those ranges for the rhythm guitars and bass.
 
Guitar74 said:
It's sounding better now compared to the first mix. Sounds like you cut down on the lows on the rhythm guitars, which is good.

I can hear the kick in the mix, but to me the kick seems a little low in level.

If your reverb effects sound muddy, try rolling off some of the lows in the reverb (if your reverb effects have that capability).
If not, you could put the reverb on a blended aux track but put an EQ filter in front of the reverb to roll off some lows.

What I would associate as "mud" for guitar or bass is around the 275Hz to 400Hz range.
Try filtering a little bit more in those ranges for the rhythm guitars and bass.
Click to expand...

I took care of the reverb from being too muddy. I use Renaissance Verb and it has the ability to filter out highs and lows. It's not the best verb I've had tho. I demoed Sonnox Oxford Reverb and I thought it was killer. Too bad its fricken expensive!
 
MetalGarret said:
I've already done this. :( I hear the kick better than I did before. You think it could still need an adjustment?
Click to expand...

This really works well for rock or metal with less kick drums, but just be careful on the sections with straight double kicks. Unless you set the release quick enough you are going to effectively turn the bass guitar down when the fast consecutive kicks happen. What you really want to do is just remove a bit of low end from the bass when the kicks hit, not the upper end of the bass spectrum. A multiband comp with a sidechain in is good for this, or use the old cross over trick. Careful for polarity issues with the crossover trick though if your using a DAW w/o delay compensation. Sounding better!
 
toolfanem said:
This really works well for rock or metal with less kick drums, but just be careful on the sections with straight double kicks. Unless you set the release quick enough you are going to effectively turn the bass guitar down when the fast consecutive kicks happen. What you really want to do is just remove a bit of low end from the bass when the kicks hit, not the upper end of the bass spectrum. A multiband comp with a sidechain in is good for this, or use the old cross over trick. Careful for polarity issues with the crossover trick though if your using a DAW w/o delay compensation. Sounding better!
Click to expand...

THanks!

I was just demoing EZDrummer 2 with my Superior Drummer 2 and the kits that come with EZDrummer sound much more big and massive than the NY Avatar kit. It's kind of hilarious. But the problem with EZDrummer is that there is less control over your drums. Like I can't customize the settings of each individual drum piece. In SD I can adjust the level of a single tom or a single cymbal. I can't do that with EZ. So yeah Im just sticking with buying the Metal Machine Kit and using it in SD. Gotta love Toontrack, man! Once I get these drums in order, this is gonna be some serious shit!
 
MetalGarret said:
THanks!

I was just demoing EZDrummer 2 with my Superior Drummer 2 and the kits that come with EZDrummer sound much more big and massive than the NY Avatar kit. It's kind of hilarious. But the problem with EZDrummer is that there is less control over your drums. Like I can't customize the settings of each individual drum piece. In SD I can adjust the level of a single tom or a single cymbal. I can't do that with EZ. So yeah Im just sticking with buying the Metal Machine Kit and using it in SD. Gotta love Toontrack, man! Once I get these drums in order, this is gonna be some serious shit!
Click to expand...

I think thats a good route to go. I wasnt really advocating getting EZdrummer if you already have Superior Drummer, just that the EZX packs shouldn't be overlooked just because they are marketed for EZdrummer. I honestly have a ton on the toontrack packs and each have there own really great pieces. I made a frankenstein kit that sounds HUGE with a mix of the Metal! (snare), Metal Machine (kick, cymbals), and Rock Solid (toms) packs. However, I REALLY wish you could load in you own samples! Even if they were just one-shots like SSD4, it'd be better than nothing.
 
toolfanem said:
I think thats a good route to go. I wasnt really advocating getting EZdrummer if you already have Superior Drummer, just that the EZX packs shouldn't be overlooked just because they are marketed for EZdrummer. I honestly have a ton on the toontrack packs and each have there own really great pieces. I made a frankenstein kit that sounds HUGE with a mix of the Metal! (snare), Metal Machine (kick, cymbals), and Rock Solid (toms) packs. However, I REALLY wish you could load in you own samples! Even if they were just one-shots like SSD4, it'd be better than nothing.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I knew what you meant. its cool! :)

That's probably what Im gonna end up doing over time is collecting packs and frankensteining them together. Leaves for unlimited possibilities.

Once I get the change to replace the kit (which should really take no time at all) I'll see what it does to my mix as a whole and see what else could use some work. Cause yeah those drums compared to the Metal Machine were just lacking for what I was using them for. I'm sure the NY Avatar kit would make good rock drums but not metal. I feel that's more clear now. And the biggest issue I was having was drowning out the kick so we'll see how well this new kit fits.

My bass isn't bad but I feel like I could get more out of it some how. I meantioned this in the thread before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IK314pKriA (@1:32)

That bass tone sounds really killer. With a little bit of distortion I think it would fit nicely in my mix. I wanna take a crack at finding something like it with my Axe FX but I dont knew which amps are for bass. Other than SV Bass and Bassguy 59 or whatever. Whatever has the word "bass" in it basically is how I can tell. But I know there's more than 4 or 5 bass amp in it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom