Can't tell if it's my mix or my tone

guitartripp said:
That's a dick-ish thing to say. You're saying his playing is fake? I think it sounds great! I would copy the track you did, and there you go...doubled! No need to re-record if it's a great take...especially when you're the one recording it and not someone trying to belittle you.
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I didn't mention his playing at all! His playing is fine - it's the production that sucks by by his own admission. You can't just copy the track, that doesn't work. 4 tracks minimum. 2 highish gain + plus 2 at lower gain for string articulation. Mix to taste - change the mix during different sections. I think most of you would be shocked at how many tracks there are on a modern production.
 
vinnieRice said:
I didn't mention his playing at all! His playing is fine - it's the production that sucks by by his own admission. You can't just copy the track, that doesn't work. 4 tracks minimum. 2 highish gain + plus 2 at lower gain for string articulation. Mix to taste - change the mix during different sections. I think most of you would be shocked at how many tracks there are on a modern production.
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I didn't copy and paste guitar tracks. I physically played 2 stereo tracks and panned them 75 left and 75 right. Threw on an S1 Stereo imager on the guitar bus track and eq'd.
 
I'd still like to know what you're monitoring through, because it still sounds like the bass guitar is too quiet on my end.
 
I'm monitoring through M-Audio BX5a's. The bass is the hardest thing to mix because I can't hear enough of the lows through them.
 
toolfanem said:
Just go all in and grab Metal Machine, your starting point will be much closer for the drums and they are IMHO the best of Toontracks metal packs. And you dont need to track more that 4 takes. I do rhythm guitars L and R and thats it. Double tracked works better for metal IMO, quad tracking is better for rock because it has a smearing effect no matter how good of a player you are. If need be, do three takes and pan one to the middle with the bass, but just keep that real low in the mix. Its preference really.

And copy and pasting the track, even if you reamped it and throw a 25ms delay on one side is still going to have that certain sound. Better off just sticking with doing a real double.
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I checked out EzDrummer 2. I initially didn't go for EzDrummer the first time because I thought it was based around pre-made grooves and not so much creating my own with the piano roll which I prefer. Am I wrong on this?
 
MetalGarret said:
I checked out EzDrummer 2. I initially didn't go for EzDrummer the first time because I thought it was based around pre-made grooves and not so much creating my own with the piano roll which I prefer. Am I wrong on this?
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Yeah, you've been missing out. The piano roll works fine with EZ drummer, no need to use the midi files that come with it if you dont want to. Also, you dont actually need EZdrummer to use metal machine, you can load Metal machine into Superior Drummer. That way you have even better control over the sound of the kit.
 
To avoid the shotgun approach of very vague advice I have 2 questions:

First, to mix heavy music and get the lows right you need a monitoring system that will push the lows properly. BX5as may not be the best solution.

Secondly, who are you trying to sound like? DT from 'Systematic Chaos' sound quite different to their last album. That's not even getting into separate bands. A good sonic idea to aim for is the best target for any mixing advice.
 
toolfanem said:
Yeah, you've been missing out. The piano roll works fine with EZ drummer, no need to use the midi files that come with it if you dont want to. Also, you dont actually need EZdrummer to use metal machine, you can load Metal machine into Superior Drummer. That way you have even better control over the sound of the kit.
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Sweet! I think it might be worth the $89. Is it what you used for your Celestial Flesh album? Cause I liked the sound of it!

I'm stuck at work right now so I can't get at my mix until later. But I'm liking the input I'm getting here. I feel like the guitar tone I have now is good. It's just getting everything else around it to fit in nicely. AND I still have to mix some synths in the mix but that'll be easy to mix once I get the band part of this down pat.
 
MetalGarret said:
I didn't copy and paste guitar tracks. I physically played 2 stereo tracks and panned them 75 left and 75 right. Threw on an S1 Stereo imager on the guitar bus track and eq'd.
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Using 2 stereo tracks for guitar I n that way = phase issues for sure ...
And a nightmare to sit all properly in the stereo image mix

Stereo is good if you are the only guitar player in a power trio with your signal panned hard ( stereo ) in a live situation .... Otherwise mmmmhhhh you need some wizard working at your side .

For sitting things in a dense mix ... Mono all the time ...
If you want to use strong stereo effects as ping pong etc ... Run a parallel fx group

Only my 2 cents ...
 
BigD1977 said:
To avoid the shotgun approach of very vague advice I have 2 questions:

First, to mix heavy music and get the lows right you need a monitoring system that will push the lows properly. BX5as may not be the best solution.

Secondly, who are you trying to sound like? DT from 'Systematic Chaos' sound quite different to their last album. That's not even getting into separate bands. A good sonic idea to aim for is the best target for any mixing advice.
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That's a good question actually. I keep comparing my mix to DT's A Dramatic Turn of Events but I bounce between that and Systematic Chaos AND Scenes from a Memory. (Yes I'm a hardcore DT fanatic.) But my record's style and structure is more meant to be more along the lines of Liquid Tension Experiment with elements of Pink Floyd and King Crimson.
 
Noriuky73 said:
Using 2 stereo tracks for guitar I n that way = phase issues for sure ...
And a nightmare to sit all properly in the stereo image mix

Stereo is good if you are the only guitar player in a power trio with your signal panned hard ( stereo ) in a live situation .... Otherwise mmmmhhhh you need some wizard working at your side .

For sitting things in a dense mix ... Mono all the time ...
If you want to use strong stereo effects as ping pong etc ... Run a parallel fx group

Only my 2 cents ...
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I tried this but I felt like I was losing some of my sound because I have a stereo cab in my preset for the OH IR's. I went stereo so to include both IR's on each side. Does anyone else hear phase issues? I dont think I do.
 
I don't think you have phase issues.

Now that we've sorted out that you did record twice, and I now know that you actually have the same monitors I do, I still say that it's a bass guitar issue.
 
Ben.Last said:
I don't think you have phase issues.

Now that we've sorted out that you did record twice, and I now know that you actually have the same monitors I do, I still say that it's a bass guitar issue.
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Agreed. I'm done messing with the guitar tone. Mixing the bass is something I've always had issues with and I've just about had it with not knowing how to do it. I'm clearing this up now.
 
I hate to get all oblique on everyone here, but the biggest thing I'm missing is any kind of "space." I'm just not hearing any reverb, which gives the impression of impact to the drums. Try setting up a fairly dense but short reverb on an aux buss and start sending the kit to that. High-pass the bejeebers out of it so it doesn't fill in everything with a ton of low- and low-mid mud. You can probably crank it up pretty high before it becomes too much. Then set up another that's a little more diffuse with a longer tail, a less aggressive high-pass, and send everything (including the drums) to that. You'll probably want a LOT less of that, but it'll help "glue" everything together and take away some of that "isolation" the individual sounds have right now.

For the record, Awake had a truly EPIC amount of gated reverb on the drums, and as a result they sound massive without overwhelming the mix.
 
MetalGarret said:
Sweet! I think it might be worth the $89. Is it what you used for your Celestial Flesh album? Cause I liked the sound of it!

I'm stuck at work right now so I can't get at my mix until later. But I'm liking the input I'm getting here. I feel like the guitar tone I have now is good. It's just getting everything else around it to fit in nicely. AND I still have to mix some synths in the mix but that'll be easy to mix once I get the band part of this down pat.
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Thanks! No, I used SSD4 and a few of my own samples. On my new stuff I am using the CLA pack in SSD4.
 
mitsu13gman said:
I hate to get all oblique on everyone here, but the biggest thing I'm missing is any kind of "space." I'm just not hearing any reverb, which gives the impression of impact to the drums. Try setting up a fairly dense but short reverb on an aux buss and start sending the kit to that. High-pass the bejeebers out of it so it doesn't fill in everything with a ton of low- and low-mid mud. You can probably crank it up pretty high before it becomes too much. Then set up another that's a little more diffuse with a longer tail, a less aggressive high-pass, and send everything (including the drums) to that. You'll probably want a LOT less of that, but it'll help "glue" everything together and take away some of that "isolation" the individual sounds have right now.

For the record, Awake had a truly EPIC amount of gated reverb on the drums, and as a result they sound massive without overwhelming the mix.
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This is interesting! I'll give that a go too. But my issue I've had with sending the kit to a reverb aux is that the reverb I have tends to mud things up. And when I do EQ it the reverb sounds like it has an edgey-ness to it that tickles my ears the wrong way. So Right now I just have a studio verb on the drums that really subtle.
 
For me personally, the biggest thing that will change your mix for the better is adding some "hype" and parallel compression to the drums. They need some additional weight because they dont sound like they are pushing the speakers enough. The biggest thing is getting the drums right. If they arent, nothing else will fit. And rather that using reverb right away, USE THE ROOM MICS! This is the BEST reverb your gonna get and will actually glue your drums together.

As far as mono vrs stereo goes as far as space and room for elements in the mix, I disagree that mono is the way to go. One of my favorite tricks for leads is using a stereo delay, into waves doubler, and the S1 stereo width plug to push things out to the sides and really saturate the stereo image. As long as you adjust the volume of elements in the mix this works fine and sounds more polished IMO. But again its a preference thing.

But just remember that there are no rules, do what sounds good. Its when I stopped worrying about the rules that my mixes started sounding much better.
 
toolfanem said:
But just remember that there are no rules, do what sounds good. Its when I stopped worrying about the rules that my mixes started sounding much better.
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This is good advice BUT only after you've learned the rules and understand the reasons for them IMO.

Another reason many guys have trouble is because they do it all themselves from playing the instruments to mastering and well, the problem with that is, you tend to mix things individually instead of together.
 
MetalGarret said:
That's a good question actually. I keep comparing my mix to DT's A Dramatic Turn of Events but I bounce between that and Systematic Chaos AND Scenes from a Memory. (Yes I'm a hardcore DT fanatic.) But my record's style and structure is more meant to be more along the lines of Liquid Tension Experiment with elements of Pink Floyd and King Crimson.
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Which elements? Which drum sound do you want to emulate? Which guitar sound? DO you want the bass rumbly and powerful and distinct or melded with the guitar sound? The overall sound is more of a mastering question once the mix is done, even though one does affect the other. Without fundamental decisions made (and stuck to) you will waste time experimenting more than crafting.

These are the important and overlooked questions by most people and are the ones that result in so many unfinished projects on every musicians hard drive.
 
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