Can you hear 10ms latency?

[Titleist]

I picked up a 200 foot spool of canare gs-6 cable that went into my patch and instrument cables at the moment. I do still have a couple 20 footer store bought cables, daddario I think, no loss with either of those cables that I can detect although I'm getting tired of the canare stuff. It's smaller diameter cable but it twists up easier as the outer layer is a bit stiffer than the larger diameter stuff. I keep instrument cables 20 feet or under.

I never used used an analog wireless system back when and decided to try digital as this unit had the best latency and frequency response I was looking for. In my case I seem to be able to detect when the upper range is limited or missing when listening to the overall sound but if I were to try and listen to isolated sounds at the upper range I doubt I'd be able to detect it. I don't know what a 15k sine wave sounds like but if it's missing from my guitar tone it takes the edge off. Like no matter how you attack the strings it's gone and technique can't bring it back and the tone stack doesn't help.

So I just use cables now like always. To the OP, do you play live on stage or at home? I think detecting small amounts of latency is something one notices more in small spaces like a bedroom etc. because you're so close to the speakers, it's easier to notice it. For some it can take a while to get used to working a larger stage where you're not on top of your output if you only use cabs and no wedges on the floor in front of you.

Either way, if latency is your issue and you have to use wireless and you want digital then the senheiser is your best bet for now as far as I know.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Maybe just adding fuel to the fire or putting it out, but there are a lot of nonlinear aspects of human auditory perception that affect both the time and frequency domain. We’ve probably all heard about how we perceive different frequencies at different intensity levels, as made famous by Mr. Flecher and Mr. Munson; well, things like latency, auditory gap processing etc are also non-linear……

So, what your playing, and how loud your playing it is also going to affect your latency perception.

On top of that, with the threshold shifts that come from age, genetics and especially noise exposure, aka “hearing loss”, we don’t just lose threshold awareness, ie; needs to be louder to hear it, but further reduction is temporal and frequency resolution. That means just as your probably not gong to hear above 12k anymore, your also not going to hear whatever minimum latency you used to think you could…..


Given most of our ages and history of loud music here, we really don’t need to worry about most of this stuff we worry about as the gear far exceeds our audibility perception and likely has for some time lol

 

[lqdsnddist]

You can hear the effect of 10ms latency. After 50 years of loud music I had to get hearing aids. For the first few days, every time I put a China plate on the table it sounded cracked. This was due to the processing latency of my new hearing aids, which the manual said was 7 to 8ms, giving a delayed signal. After 10 days my brain adjusted, and the plates sounded normal again.

Most newer hearing aids will have features like variable compression levels, impulse noise reduction settings and more which can really minimize the artificial sounds of crumpling paper, pots and pans etc, while still giving enough emphasis for the the speech region so you can tell the difference when the wife says “Fred is the Chief” or “Ted is a thief”. Often just need the “instrument specialist” aka hearing aid dealer, or audiologist to turn the features on in software or put a little more effort into tuning them.

 

[steadystate]

When I'm recording and sitting at the computer with the guitar for hours, my ability to notice the latency increases with time. At first, I don't notice it at all. After several hours, anything over 10 ms is intolerable. This is especially true for edrums. I find myself freezing tracks so I can set the buffer to 8 samples in Reaper without glitches. This is why I have issues with ASIO4ALL. It works, but I can never get the latency low enough not to drive me insane.

 

[Peavey Herman]

When I'm recording and sitting at the computer with the guitar for hours, my ability to notice the latency increases with time. At first, I don't notice it at all. After several hours, anything over 10 ms is intolerable. This is especially true for edrums. I find myself freezing tracks so I can set the buffer to 8 samples in Reaper without glitches. This is why I have issues with ASIO4ALL. It works, but I can never get the latency low enough not to drive me insane.

Have you tried VB Audio Matrix instead of ASIO4ALL? In my experience it offers better/lower latency. The licensing scheme is a bit wonky, though.

 

[suhrmajesty]

I notice latency when it starts to reach 7ms, anything below that and I don't notice it.

 

[Anthony76]

Like with most things, it depends. Using speakers/cabs/stage monitors, I don’t really notice too much difference. However, if I’m using headphones or IEM then yes I definitely notice it.

 

[vangrieg]

I don’t think I’d hear 10ms of latency or notice it consciously. However, what I do know is that as latency adds up, my playing changes, I subconsciously start playing harder, digging the pick into strings with more force. As if my brain doesn’t register the sound on time and tries to compensate somehow… I don’t know. Whether it’s a 10 ms or 15 I’m not sure, never really measured it, and don’t even think it’s some specific threshold.

The first time I noticed it was when after a few years I played into an amp, with a guitar connected directly to its input with a cable, the immediacy of reaction kinda shocked me.

It’s a bit easier with IEMs/headphones for me, and certainly less pronounced when playing in a loud mix. Even though when I was gigging I believe overall latency was more than 10 ms through the whole signal chain (guitar wireless, Axe-FX, monitor mixer, wireless IEM).

 

[KFF]

Will she/won't she?

One can usually tell in the blink-of-an-eye!

Around 3ms on the Fractal end... pretty, pretty... pretty good.

Don't blink too much further... she'll know!

9.2387 for me (j/k)... beyond that... I reach for the micrometer...

...then I look a RIGHT twat!
-------------------------------------

If it sounds (feels) good...

It IS good!

 

[Dpoirier]

...
I found a cheap wireless solutions that has approx. 2ms of latency + FM3 latency + pc latency (if used live) and I'm able to stay at maximum 10/12 ms... that works great for me!

Would you mind sharing info / link for that cheap wireless solution? In advertising, everyone says "low latency" even if it's 50ms so I haven't found anything cheap on my end

 

[FractalAudio]

Good to know. Some past posts that I read here said it was 5ms. Was this improved in a past fw update?

Yes

 

[Riccardo Ros]

Would you mind sharing info / link for that cheap wireless solution? In advertising, everyone says "low latency" even if it's 50ms so I haven't found anything cheap on my end

Sure!
Swiff audio ws-50.
I was tired of every other cheap solution (boss, Xvive, etc) having good signal but high latency.
If I remember well I discovered it through this channel

I'm using them since April 2024 every day and for 60€ you can't go wrong. Works also on active pickups

 

[stratzrus]

I was in Long and McQuade today and almost fell in to temptation to replace my Shure GLXD16+ with the Sennheiser Evolution. The Sennheiser is more expensive.

Both are significantly more expensive than a LEKATO Wireless Guitar System 5.8.

Is there some reason why the Shure and Sennheiser that cost so much more are better?

 

[boyedav]

Both are significantly more expensive than a LEKATO Wireless Guitar System 5.8.

Is there some reason why the Shure and Sennheiser that cost so much more are better?

Look at the specs. Latency, transmission range, dynamic range.

My Line 6 Relay G75 has a latency of 1.5ms, transmission range of 200m, and dynamic range of > 120 dB. I'm guessing the Sennheiser and Shure spec similarly. The Lekato is 6ms, 100m, and 105 dB. It costs less because it uses lower end components. Nothing wrong with that if it suits your needs

 

[vangrieg]

Look at the specs.

That 2ms one has 85 dB signal to noise ratio, it’s unusable with anything high gain

 

[Under_Pressure]

I was in Long and McQuade today and almost fell in to temptation to replace my Shure GLXD16+ with the Sennheiser Evolution. The Sennheiser is more expensive. The reason I thought the Sennheiser would be a good replacement is for the ultra low latency. Its at 1.9 ms compared to the 4.8ms of the Shure. My modeler is 5ms. So collectively with the shure around 10ms.
So before I spent the money I thought I'd come home and test how much I could hear this latency. I have read on different guitar forums how many players can hear 10ms of latency.
So I spent about 30-40 minutes back and forth with a direct guitar cable and the wireless system. I figured if it was just a very slight difference I wouldn't worry about spending another $900 on the Sennheiser.
I was surprised that I couldn't hear any difference whatsoever. Either with the cable or the Shure wireless it sounded immediate to me.
So I guess I'll stop obsessing about latency.
But out of curiosity can anyone here attest to being able to hear 10ms with digital audio interfaces or modelers?

So I also use the GLXD16+ and with FW 9, and honestly I can't feel any latency at all.
Only time latency is palpable is when I had the Virtual Capo, then it is very noticeable but I only use it for a couple of songs so it's not a problem, and I think most of the latency is just coming from the Pitch to begin with.

 

[porieux]

I would say latency affects ‘feel’ rather than sound. That said 10ms isn’t bad.

 

[Promit]

use an analog rig and move away from it ~11.3 ft (for your 10ms latency)

if you can't connect with what you're playing...

than 10ms latency might not be good enough for you

I personally find 15-20 ms I get really disconnected from my playing

This isn't a surefire way to compare latency. While it is literally true that sound travels close to 1 foot per millisecond, the reverberant field (aka "the room") confuses the absolute jebus out of our brain and results in a very different feeling when comparing distance latency to processing latency.

 

[mr_fender]

I would say latency affects ‘feel’ rather than sound. That said 10ms isn’t bad.

Yeah that's how I typically perceive it. It's hard to describe, but it just feels a bit different. Your brain adapts pretty quickly though. You notice it more for a while after it changes. Below around 8 ms, I can't really tell much of a difference. Above about 15 or so it starts to get noticeable but still usable. Past about 20 or 25 ms it gets distracting. Above 30 ms is hard to use. It also depends on what you are playing. Very rhythmic or percussive playing makes it much more noticeable than something like a singing melody or sustained chords for sure.

 

[mr_fender]

This isn't a surefire way to compare latency. While it is literally true that sound travels close to 1 foot per millisecond, the reverberant field (aka "the room") confuses the absolute jebus out of our brain and results in a very different feeling when comparing distance latency to processing latency.

Yeah, I think in an anechoic space it would be more noticeable. Room reflections kind of blur things a bit. I can notice it much more through headphones than in the room.