Best place to reduce output clipping?

B

brain21

Inspired
Since I upgraded to 9.0 from 7.xx, every single one of my patches lights up that output clip light! My input is only at between 9 and 10 O'clock, so it's barely turned up. There is no input clipping. But that output clipping comes on constantly. :-(

Where is the best place to reduce this? Global output gain slider has no effect on whether it clips or not. If I reduce at the amp or cab block (many of these presets are just amp and cab, or maybe amp, cab & reverb) the overall sound not only gets lower in volume (and I'm not lowering it drastically), but the gain gets softer and it starts to get a little muddy too. Even if I do that and then turn up the output knob on the front, it doesn't help clear things up, etc.

So is there somewhere else where I can effectively lower the output clipping without adversely affecting the tone of the patch I created?

Thanks,

Brain21
 
I've found that a PEQ placed after the cab block will work.

I'll play while keeping track of what notes cause the clipping. For my patches (high gain) it tends to be between G#3 to B3, so I set one band of the PEQ to around 200Hz, choose a high Q, and cut it until the clipping is minimized.

Others have used a compressor, but I haven't delved into that, so I can't really comment meaningfully on that subject.

Good luck.
 
Since clipping can be introduced at many places in the chain, what I do is bypass everything but the amp and strum hard at various fretboard locations. If I clip then I turn the amp level/master down. If I don't clip then I turn the next item in the chain on and test again. I do this for each item in the chain until I find and fix the item or items that are causing the clipping.
 
For a routing like you described you can pick any level control from the amp block onward and turn it down until clipping is gone. (As the manual states, clipping an individual block is nearly impossible. The clip indicator means the final signal exceeds what 24 bits can represent.) If output slider at -20 dB doesn't eliminate it try the amp level (can go to -50 dB) or reduce low end with the bass or low cut value.
 
Bakerman said:
For a routing like you described you can pick any level control from the amp block onward and turn it down until clipping is gone. (As the manual states, clipping an individual block is nearly impossible. The clip indicator means the final signal exceeds what 24 bits can represent.) If output slider at -20 dB doesn't eliminate it try the amp level (can go to -50 dB) or reduce low end with the bass or low cut value.
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Exactly, you don't clip individual blocks. You clip the final output. I like reducing the volume in the layout output mixer main volume.

Like you saidThe amp block level is another good place.

The one block the can clip by itself is the delay block but it is at pretty high levels and is rare to do.

Brain21 said
If I reduce at the amp or cab block (many of these presets are just amp and cab, or maybe amp, cab & reverb) the overall sound not only gets lower in volume (and I'm not lowering it drastically), but the gain gets softer and it starts to get a little muddy too.
Click to expand...

No, if you reduce the cab volume it will not effect anything but volume. The same is true of the amp level. That is unless you are using cab drive. Then the amp level will reduces the amount of drive the cab puts out. The cab level only effects volume, nothing else (unless another non-linear effect follows). If you don't want to worry about any on that just go to the layout-mixer and turn the main level down.
 
FWIW after playing with suggestions here, I found the best place to reduce the output clipping, while still retaining the same character of sound, (at least for me) was by adjusting the level in the amp block. The level dial on page/tab 2, immediately after the Master Vol dial. When I used the level control in the layout mixer the volume seemed to reduce when I lowered it a lot, but the clipping remained. When I lowered the level in the cab block enough to reduce the output clipping, it changed the characteristic of the patches and decreased the gain in the patch.

Thanks for all the suggestions!
 
Interesting that you came to that conclusion Brain21. I believe this is what Cliff stated at the outset; that he would change at the amp level to reduce this sort of thing.

I'm still learning and I love it.

TimmyM
 
goodwill559 said:
I've found that a PEQ placed after the cab block will work.

I'll play while keeping track of what notes cause the clipping. For my patches (high gain) it tends to be between G#3 to B3, so I set one band of the PEQ to around 200Hz, choose a high Q, and cut it until the clipping is minimized.

Others have used a compressor, but I haven't delved into that, so I can't really comment meaningfully on that subject.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Why would you muck with your sound by choking a single band instead of just choosing an appropriate block along the way to reduce the level of?
 
Amp level. That one is not supposed to change your tone. Gain, drive, master all do, but level shouldn't.
My take is that the amp is the thing that mostly responsible for the volume differences, so that's where the adjustments should be administered. As long as everything following it is linear (i.e. no drives, cabdrive or compressors engaged, maybe reverb diffusion) there should not be any difference in tone. If you use cab drive or MBC at the end (also not sure about the enhancer, but I never use that thing) and you perceive a difference in tone you could try adjusting the level at that block.

Try copying your preset and adjusting the copy's amp level, adjust the layout button mix page to compensate and compare between the presets at the same level. Could be that Fletcher-Munson is still playing tricks on you while adjusting the level and bringing the output back up.


Or maybe you just like the clipping tone of the output.
 
1) I adjust input level knob so that red light flash only during loudest strumming;
2) I tweak each block adjusting block level so that bypassed/unbypassed block level is roughly the same;
3) If i set a parallel path, I halve the last parallel block levels so that the sum is still unity;
4) My clean patches have stronger peak, so I adjust their overall level, than tweak other patches level according to the clean ones (as needed: I can boost or cut, if a solo or rythm sound is needed).

Hope this help. :roll:
 
brain21 said:
FWIW after playing with suggestions here, I found the best place to reduce the output clipping, while still retaining the same character of sound, (at least for me) was by adjusting the level in the amp block. The level dial on page/tab 2, immediately after the Master Vol dial. When I used the level control in the layout mixer the volume seemed to reduce when I lowered it a lot, but the clipping remained. When I lowered the level in the cab block enough to reduce the output clipping, it changed the characteristic of the patches and decreased the gain in the patch.

Thanks for all the suggestions!
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Whether you reduce the db level in the amp level parameter or the main mix level the result will be the same regarding clipping. The axe-fx clips at the output.

so if you are clipping the output by 7dbs it makes no difference whether you reduce it at the amp level or the main out provided there are no major nonlinear effects following like compression, distortion or cab drive.

Also, changing the cab level has no effect on tone unless there are non-linear effects following (compression, drive, etc.) but reducing the amp level would have the same effect in this case. If by gain you mean drive or distortion, lowering the cab level will not change the drive characteristics unless there is something using drive after it. Changing the amp level can if you are using significant amounts of drive in the cab block.

By reducing the volume at the output mixer main parameter, you don't have to worry about whether you have non-linear effects following the amp block. It just reduces the volume. No tone changes just reduces volume. Reducing the volume here is just as effective as the amp level parameter and maybe even more so in some cases (where you have compression following the amp).

The cab block levels do not effect tone. The cabs are linear unless the drive is used. Even if the drive is used the level parameter comes after the drive (I believe) so it is a simple volume control at that point.

The 2 obvious places for reducing volume to avoid clipping are at the output and at the amp block level (just because it is the block with greatest gain increase generally). Reducing the level parameter in the amp block can change the tone but only if there are non-linear effects following it. This is true of any block. The main output will not change your tone because there are no non-linear effects that can follow within the axe-fx. It simply changes the volume.

Again, clipping occurs at the output, not at an effect. The one exception is the delay but for our purposes in this discussion that is almost assuredly not the issue. Where you reduce the volume as far as clipping is concerned doesn't matter; only that it is reduced by the required dbs before the output.
 
In my experience, clipping is most common on low freq swell, at least on my patches anyway. Using an EQ is pretty effective to counter that if you don't want to reduce your overall "general" volume. Then again it depends on what kind of clip you are experiencing.
 
I was having the same trouble with clipping red light, by output 1 (pa-output), when I don't have a cable put in(in output 1 xlr), when I do have a cable put in both outputs, the clipping is almost gone :p
 
Java - if I get your post right, you are basically saying that everything I experienced is incorrect. Theory or no theory, I tried the suggestions and reported back what I found. When I reduced the output on the Cab block, the character of the sound did indeed change. When I reduced the main output level in the mixer, the clipping did indeed remain. When I reduced the output level in the amp block, it did indeed fix the issue and retain the same sound charactar. All of this flies in contrast to everything you stated. :)

So what I am wondering is this... If everything that you described is correct for one cause of output clipping, and the resolution and characteristics that I described are correct for a different cause of output clipping? Could say one be volume-related while another is processor-related but seems to manifest itself as a volume issue?

I don't doubt what you say, but I can only report the actual, real experiences I had. I'm sure there is an explanation for the (seeming) contradiction. Not that it's important, I solved my issue thanks to the suggestions, but I'm curious as to the explanation, and wondering if the explanation could possibly be of some use in solving other issues that myself, or others may run into in the future? Also, did I put enough commas into that last sentence?

Brain21
 
brain21 said:
Java - if I get your post right, you are basically saying that everything I experienced is incorrect. Theory or no theory, I tried the suggestions and reported back what I found. When I reduced the output on the Cab block, the character of the sound did indeed change. When I reduced the main output level in the mixer, the clipping did indeed remain. When I reduced the output level in the amp block, it did indeed fix the issue and retain the same sound charactar. All of this flies in contrast to everything you stated. :)

So what I am wondering is this... If everything that you described is correct for one cause of output clipping, and the resolution and characteristics that I described are correct for a different cause of output clipping? Could say one be volume-related while another is processor-related but seems to manifest itself as a volume issue?

I don't doubt what you say, but I can only report the actual, real experiences I had. I'm sure there is an explanation for the (seeming) contradiction. Not that it's important, I solved my issue thanks to the suggestions, but I'm curious as to the explanation, and wondering if the explanation could possibly be of some use in solving other issues that myself, or others may run into in the future? Also, did I put enough commas into that last sentence?

Brain21
Click to expand...

This is how Cliff has stated how it works on NUMEROUS occasions. I have tested it myself and found no reason to doubt him. Yes, if your are reaching the limits of processor strange things like that can happen. I have tested the cab extensive lowering/raising its output level does not have an effect on tone unless a non linear effect is after it. Then any volume changes prior to the non-linear effect can effect tone including the amp block level. I can demonstrate this with spectral analyzer. All the level parameter is in the cab block is a volume knob, same with the amp level, same with the main mix level. They will not effect the tone unless there is a non-linear effect that follow (drive, amp block, compression, etc.) I would have had to see your original patch that was clipping to understand why it may have acted differently.
 
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