Bash My Guitar Tone

[Rex]

Generally speaking, most of the punch will come from the bass and drums, though.

This, this and this.

 

[mr_fender]

Yep. Heavy guitar sounds are by their nature quite compressed because of all the clipping. One trick is to double track your parts with both high and low to mid gain tones. The high gain layer adds the harmonics and sustain while the low to mid gain one has the body and dynamics. Together they can sound huge and more complex. Double tracking just heavy tones can sometimes just smear things more.

 

[B:ASSMASTER]

One trick is to double track your parts with both high and low to mid gain tones. The high gain layer adds the harmonics and sustain while the low to mid gain one has the body and dynamics.

I think you mean quad tracking. If you just double tracked (high gain left and low to mid gain right) you'd leave your listeners a bit woozy.

If you plan on quad tracking, you better play each part tight as f**k.

 

[H13]

Rightio: Take 2. I haven't taken EVERYTHING on board yet (baby steps) but I think this is an improvement in some ways:

Les Paul:


Explorer:


Full Mix:


(I didn't re-do the bass, there didn't seem to be any major issues there)

The full mix seems to have a lot more life to it which is good. It also does sound a lot more "realistic" in comparison which is great.

Things I would like to improve:
- I'm missing some of the top-end sizzle. It's a little "pointy" for my likings which means that there's probably a bit too much mids MAYBE around 1k?

- I don't think the Explorer likes the new IR as much as the Les Paul so I might need to change amps for the Explorer.

- I don't think the bass adds any punch to what I've got compared to what it used to last time. It sounds good, but I don't think it adds to the guitars as such. Any suggestions for how to marry these 2 a bit more?

 

[Jason Scott]

Rightio: Take 2. I haven't taken EVERYTHING on board yet (baby steps) but I think this is an improvement in some ways:

Les Paul:


Explorer:


Full Mix:


(I didn't re-do the bass, there didn't seem to be any major issues there)

The full mix seems to have a lot more life to it which is good. It also does sound a lot more "realistic" in comparison which is great.

Things I would like to improve:
- I'm missing some of the top-end sizzle. It's a little "pointy" for my likings which means that there's probably a bit too much mids MAYBE around 1k?

- I don't think the Explorer likes the new IR as much as the Les Paul so I might need to change amps for the Explorer.

- I don't think the bass adds any punch to what I've got compared to what it used to last time. It sounds good, but I don't think it adds to the guitars as such. Any suggestions for how to marry these 2 a bit more?

Personally, I think the full mix sounds a lot better. If you want more punch, try compressing the kick and snare a bit. As for sizzle, you can try boosting 5000Hz by 1.5dB, and maybe add a low pass filter at 13.5KHz. I played around with your full mix and here's a tentative example.

 

[B:ASSMASTER]

I don't think the bass adds any punch to what I've got compared to what it used to last time. It sounds good, but I don't think it adds to the guitars as such.

Yeah, because of this.

(I didn't re-do the bass, there didn't seem to be any major issues there)

All kidding aside, the bass guitar takes a bit of processing to link up with the kick and the mid-range components of the mix. This is where quality monitors come in or at least some high-end headphones that have a flat low-end. So, here's some tips.

Use something like Wave's Bass Rider. Saves a lot of time and you won't have to use as much compression, which will lead to more life and punch. Filter you bass into two separate tracks (just copy and paste the DI and reamp for the grit/dist track or use a plugin). When you filter the DI into just it's lows, you get a pure low-end that's unaffected by distortion. This gives you flexibility in processing and you don't run into farting out the low-mids with distortion. So, follow my tips about doing that, from my last comment.

I'm assuming that your monitors aren't up to snuff or you're high-passing to much because the low-end is lacking in your mix. You can high-pass your bused tracks (DI and dist) somewhere up to 90Hz. The bass is tighter, but you'll need to compensate. By adding a shelving boost somewhere say between 50 or 70Hz or so. You get the tightness and the sub-low you need. From there, it's more EQ (I'm not going baby you through the whole thing), into two compressors (sharing the load will make it less uneven) and then a limiter (just for a little more control while not sacrificing the body).

 

[B:ASSMASTER]

I'm missing some of the top-end sizzle. It's a little "pointy" for my likings which means that there's probably a bit too much mids MAYBE around 1k?

I usually low-pass around 8kHz, but I also end up using a high-shelf boost usually around the same frequency. This lets you bring in some of that sizzle, but you get to control how much. I have a lot of plugins for this boost, but it depends on the mix for which one I reach for. The Hammer and Clariphonic are good from Kush and off the top of my head I think one from PSP. I have way too many.

 

[B:ASSMASTER]

It's a little "pointy" for my likings which means that there's probably a bit too much mids MAYBE around 1k?

I think you're hearing the clank from the bass mixing with the guitars and it's probably around the area you said. So, try EQing that region on the bass guitar and see if that helps.

 

[mr_fender]

I think you mean quad tracking. If you just double tracked (high gain left and low to mid gain right) you'd leave your listeners a bit woozy.

If you plan on quad tracking, you better play each part tight as f**k.

Yeah I pan the low and high gain parts together so they blend into one tone.

 

[H13]

Personally, I think the full mix sounds a lot better. If you want more punch, try compressing the kick and snare a bit. As for sizzle, you can try boosting 5000Hz by 1.5dB, and maybe add a low pass filter at 13.5KHz. I played around with your full mix and here's a tentative example.

Cheers for that! It ended up sounded a bit more mid-scooped, which lead me to investigate my top end (2k-4k) rather than my sizzle. I think I've made for some improvements there.

A LOT OF AWESOME STUFF

My monitors are Dynaudio BM5As. My room is not treated and I know that my room gives me some pretty big problems (buying a house this year hopefully). My headphones are AKG K701s which are AWESOME for mid-range and top end and balancing levels, but not great for bass detail. When I can hear the bass in the AKGs, I know I've got enough of it "in the mix" in terms of what you want to hear, then I use my monitors and sub to hear everything below the AKGs.

The way you suggest to handle bass is a different approach to what I do, but I think the end result would be similar so I'm curious to hear the reasons behind your method vs. mine. We also seem to use a lot of the same tools (fucking LOVE Kush Audio stuff) so I feel like I could probably learn a fair bit here (Already have!)

In the mix there are 3 bass tracks:
- Bass DI
- Bass AFX
- Bass COMP

I use a Fabfilter EQ to be a big clean filter on everything at around 600 (get a bit of the DI "tone" to blend with the bass guitar but focus on a clean bottom end). I also have it breathing into the Cakewalk LA-2A (BARELY doing anything) more because I like the sound of a Bass DI -> LA-2A than anything else.

I then effectively treat the Bass AFX track like a guitar track. (HPF at around 100, LPF at around 7k). Kush Electra at this point to shape the tone, but no compression at all.

I balance the volume of the two so that the DI\AFX tracks basically sound like the one instrument. The DI track is always a bit softer, but with my AKGs on, I can hear it poke through every now and then.

Both of these tracks are sent to an AUX (BassCOMP, at the same volume that they're "balanced" at in the mix) where I smash the shit out of it with the Kush UBK Compressor. I then have this fairly quietly in a mix just to ensure that I always have SOME sort of a bass presence and that the bottom end never drops out of a song, but the DI\AFX tracks still dominate the mix and jump over the top of it.

So my impression was that I get the lovely sound of a heavily compressed bass guitar, but the uncompressed AFX\DI tracks still jump out on top. Wouldn't that be the same as your Bass Rider trick?

Like your EQ ideas. Haven't ever tried messing with ranges outside the LPF\HPF ranges before...

Will post one more sample tomorrow. Strings are dying so this experiment is nearing an end

 

[solo-act]

From what I hear, it sounds like you're longing for the benefits that well applied compression can get you. Set correctly, it can modify the amplitude envelope in the way you might be seeking so attack/girth/size/power/palm mute, whatever you want to call it, is emphasized.

I'd take off all compression everywhere and start to think about how you're applying it. You can't improve dynamics if you squash the s**t out of everything.

 

[B:ASSMASTER]

I use a Fabfilter EQ to be a big clean filter on everything at around 600 (get a bit of the DI "tone" to blend with the bass guitar but focus on a clean bottom end). I also have it breathing into the Cakewalk LA-2A (BARELY doing anything) more because I like the sound of a Bass DI -> LA-2A than anything else.

I'm assuming that you're low-passing the bass DI at 600? If so, I would definitely recommend bringing that down to 300 or 200Hz. I would also high-pass the DI around 50Hz. Next, I use the Waves Bass Rider to even out the dynamics. From there I also like to run the DI into a compressor. I set mine to a medium attack and fast release with a ratio of 4:1. The thing that I think is wrong with yours is that it's "BARELY doing anything". The gain reduction should be generous to control the dynamics, but not too much that it smothers the bass. All of this is done just to the DI track. If you follow this, you won't have it "dominate and jump over top" of the mix. This is how my approach differs from yours. This is also why we split the tracks into DI and distortion for more flexibility.

I then effectively treat the Bass AFX track like a guitar track. (HPF at around 100, LPF at around 7k).

Bring that high-pass up to around 600Hz.

Both of these tracks are sent to an AUX (BassCOMP, at the same volume that they're "balanced" at in the mix) where I smash the shit out of it with the Kush UBK Compressor.

This is wrong. You need to have both of those tracks sent to a "bass" bus track, so that you can now process both tracks together. Never smash the shit out of it. Staging compression is the trick with bass. Working with the bass bus, add a compressor. Set it for fast attack and fast release. I like using the Waves Renaissance Compressor. I aim for about 5dB of gain reduction or so. No more than that, though. Next, hit it with a brick wall limiter. This is to catch those peaks that "jump out". Aim for shaving off just 1 or 2dB from the peaks. From there, you can go on to EQ and that's pretty much it.

I don't really have much else advice to give. I think I've pretty much laid all my cards on the table. It's all you from here on out.

 

[H13]

Rightio, here's the last crack for the time being.

B:ASSMASTER you're definitely onto something I think. I don't think I've mastered your techniques yet, but I do like how they work. What I've done this time with the bass:
- Pulled the LPF on the DI bass to around 300
- Removed the Bass Comp track and compressed both bass tracks seperately and appropriately
- Bussed them with a bit of very transparent bus limiting.

What I did which was different was that I didn't HPF the distorted bass up to 600. However, what I did was a Low-Shelf EQ. The bottom end of my distorted bass doesn't seem THAT distorted and I've always liked how "bold" it sounded. It's got a bit more character in it that I like than the DI. So rather than cut out the bottom end completely, I tried to blend it with the Bass DI with a Low Shelf EQ instead. Tried to get a happy medium going?

I think the bass is better. Happy to take on board other suggestions though.

I've done 2 different mixes because I experimented with a different amp for the Explorer.

Amp A:

This is the one I've been using. I got it "as good" as I can.

Amp B:

This is the new amp. It's not a completely different tone (because I'm not going for "different") but I think it responds to the pick\IR better and has a more open upper mids.

Full Mix With Amp A:


Full Mix With Amp B:


I don't think there's a HUGE difference, but I do think the new amp plays a bit nicer. With a more complicated riff or mix, those slight differences might pay off quite nicely.

I must say: I'm pretty fucking sick of playing Demise Of Sanity by Black Label Society by now! Will take on-board further recommendations but I'm going to try to make some music for the next week or two instead

 

[Jason Scott]

Rightio, here's the last crack for the time being.

B:ASSMASTER you're definitely onto something I think. I don't think I've mastered your techniques yet, but I do like how they work. What I've done this time with the bass:
- Pulled the LPF on the DI bass to around 300
- Removed the Bass Comp track and compressed both bass tracks seperately and appropriately
- Bussed them with a bit of very transparent bus limiting.

What I did which was different was that I didn't HPF the distorted bass up to 600. However, what I did was a Low-Shelf EQ. The bottom end of my distorted bass doesn't seem THAT distorted and I've always liked how "bold" it sounded. It's got a bit more character in it that I like than the DI. So rather than cut out the bottom end completely, I tried to blend it with the Bass DI with a Low Shelf EQ instead. Tried to get a happy medium going?

I think the bass is better. Happy to take on board other suggestions though.

I've done 2 different mixes because I experimented with a different amp for the Explorer.

Amp A:

This is the one I've been using. I got it "as good" as I can.

Amp B:

This is the new amp. It's not a completely different tone (because I'm not going for "different") but I think it responds to the pick\IR better and has a more open upper mids.

Full Mix With Amp A:


Full Mix With Amp B:


I don't think there's a HUGE difference, but I do think the new amp plays a bit nicer. With a more complicated riff or mix, those slight differences might pay off quite nicely.

I must say: I'm pretty fucking sick of playing Demise Of Sanity by Black Label Society by now! Will take on-board further recommendations but I'm going to try to make some music for the next week or two instead

I realize mixing is subjective, but if you ask me, one of the bigger issues with all of the mixes I've heard thus far is the guitars are dominating them rather than sitting comfortably in them. In my opinion, they're simply too loud / up front, and to my ears, there's too much high end. As it is, they're stepping on the sonic space of everything else. Pulling the level down (as well as taming some of the high end) would make room for both drums (especially the cymbals / hi-hat) and bass, which in turn may yield more punch. As it is, the guitars are breathing down everyone else's neck in the mix.

That said, personally, I wouldn't have a problem hi-passing the bass around 600. You don't need the mids and highs, but including more low-mids can flesh out the bass.

Additionally, I recommend mixing each instrument while listening to the entire mix rather than in isolation for the most part. I mean, it's fine to solo an instrument if there's an issue you need to troubleshoot, but for the most part I'd suggest making EQ, compression and level decisions while listening to the entire mix.

Most importantly, I'd highly recommend some room treatment (bass traps, absorption) to control room reflections and balance the highs and lows. What good are accurate monitors if the sound coming out of them is mangled by the room before it hits your ears? It's a bit like trying to make accurate decisions involving color while wearing rose tinted glasses. Some people use headphones, but no engineer worth their salt relies on headphones to make critical mix decisions. The entire nature of imaging between monitors and headphones is completely different. If you want mixes that sound good primarily on headphones, mix on headphones. If you want them that sound good primarily on speakers, mix on speakers. I consult headphones to check a mix, but for critical mix decisions, I always use monitors.

 

[H13]

I realize mixing is subjective, but if you ask me, one of the bigger issues with all of the mixes I've heard thus far is the guitars are dominating them rather than sitting comfortably in them. In my opinion, they're simply too loud / up front, and to my ears, there's too much high end. As it is, they're stepping on the sonic space of everything else. Pulling the level down (as well as taming some of the high end) would make room for both drums (especially the cymbals / hi-hat) and bass, which in turn may yield more punch. As it is, the guitars are breathing down everyone else's neck in the mix.

That said, personally, I wouldn't have a problem hi-passing the bass around 600. You don't need the mids and highs, but including more low-mids can flesh out the bass.

Additionally, I recommend mixing each instrument while listening to the entire mix rather than in isolation for the most part. I mean, it's fine to solo an instrument if there's an issue you need to troubleshoot, but for the most part I'd suggest making EQ, compression and level decisions while listening to the entire mix.

Most importantly, I'd highly recommend some room treatment (bass traps, absorption) to control room reflections and balance the highs and lows. What good are accurate monitors if the sound coming out of them is mangled by the room before it hits your ears? It's a bit like trying to make accurate decisions involving color while wearing rose tinted glasses. Some people use headphones, but no engineer worth their salt relies on headphones to make critical mix decisions. The entire nature of imaging between monitors and headphones is completely different. If you want mixes that sound good primarily on headphones, mix on headphones. If you want them that sound good primarily on speakers, mix on speakers. I consult headphones to check a mix, but for critical mix decisions, I always use monitors.

Yeah, listening on my non-studio headphones has the guitars way too loud. On my monitors, the bass is too loud and on my studio headphones, the bass is too quiet. I've got 4 different sources that I listen to and all 4 give me different results. Gonna have to get a treated room realistically speaking.

 

[B:ASSMASTER]

So rather than cut out the bottom end completely, I tried to blend it with the Bass DI with a Low Shelf EQ instead. Tried to get a happy medium going?

Yeah, there's no hard an fast rules in mixing. Only fundamentally universal things. Other than that, use your ears.

 

[B:ASSMASTER]

That said, personally, I wouldn't have a problem hi-passing the bass around 600. You don't need the mids and highs, but including more low-mids can flesh out the bass.

I was only talking about doing that to the bass distortion track. The DI would be low-passed at 200 to 300Hz. I know you said "including more low-mids can flesh out the bass" and you may be thinking that my approach leaves a hole in the low mids because I low-pass the DI at 200 and hi-pass the bass distortion at 600. However, that's exactly what I want. The low mids are a b*tch with bass. Anything you can do to to lessen them early on will help the mix.

the guitars are dominating them rather than sitting comfortably in them. In my opinion, they're simply too loud / up front

Totally agree with this. Volume fader needs to come down and highs need to let cymbals cut through. That's why I said this on the first page:

Your high-end is also obstructing the cymbals and hi-hat. Low-pass somewhere between 6 to 10kHz.

 

[B:ASSMASTER]

I don't think there's a HUGE difference, but I do think the new amp plays a bit nicer.

The new amp definitely sounds less stuffy.

 

[B:ASSMASTER]

@H13 if you could get us those stems, I'd love to take a crack at this.

 

[Jason Scott]

I was only talking about doing that to the bass distortion track. The DI would be low-passed at 200 to 300Hz. I know you said "including more low-mids can flesh out the bass" and you may be thinking that my approach leaves a hole in the low mids because I low-pass the DI at 200 and hi-pass the bass distortion at 600. However, that's exactly what I want. The low mids are a b*tch with bass. Anything you can do to to lessen them early on will help the mix.

I usually finesse the low-mids with a multiband-comp. if need be, but it's entirely mix dependent.