Axe Poweramp/Cab sounds quite cold with no punch

[Stratmann]

Hi,
I am using the following equipment:

Samson Servo 260 SS poweramp into 2 1x12 Thiele cabs loaded with EV12L

My problem: Whatever tone I dial in, it always sounds a bit cold and thin in comparison to a real tube ampb. It sure is very transparent but for my opinion allmost too much. It lacks the warmth of a real tube amp. The ferquencies are reaching very low but there is still no real punch and the higher frequencies are always a bit overpronounced. If I cut them down I destroy the overall sound.

I will have another testdrive in a rehearsal situation with the band at the weekend. If it fails, I will return the AxeFX. It seems to be not for me. I am afraid to say it is overhyped. Yes, it is good for recording. Yes, it has good effects. Yes, it is very versatile. But is it good enough to replace a real tube amp setup? I doubt it.

 

[joegold]

Before you give up on it you should try it with a better power amp.

I'm using an ART SLA-1 (in bridged mono mode mostly, for the extra headroom) into an EVM-12L in an open-back cab. Sounds great.
If I was in stereo all the time I'd probably use an SLA-2.

IMO
The Axe does not sound exactly like a tube amp. I think it makes its own sounds that are very much like some of the best tube amps I've owned, but better.

 

[m lebofsky]

Hi,
I am using the following equipment:

Samson Servo 260 SS poweramp into 2 1x12 Thiele cabs loaded with EV12L

My problem: Whatever tone I dial in, it always sounds a bit cold and thin in comparison to a real tube ampb. It sure is very transparent but for my opinion allmost too much. It lacks the warmth of a real tube amp. The ferquencies are reaching very low but there is still no real punch and the higher frequencies are always a bit overpronounced. If I cut them down I destroy the overall sound.

I will have another testdrive in a rehearsal situation with the band at the weekend. If it fails, I will return the AxeFX. It seems to be not for me. I am afraid to say it is overhyped. Yes, it is good for recording. Yes, it has good effects. Yes, it is very versatile. But is it good enough to replace a real tube amp setup? I doubt it.

The real question is: Is it good enough to replace a "miced" real tube amp setup? Most are finding it is even better.

 

[FractalAudio]

Did you turn off the cab modeling?

 

[Stratmann]

The real question is: Is it good enough to replace a "miced" real tube amp setup? Most are finding it is even better.

I agree! For the Axe I to change the way of thinking (hearing). I really want to convert to this way and I hope I can. It is a 30 year habbit now and hard to change.

Did you turn off the cab modeling?

Yes.

People are saying they don't feel the latency. I really do feel it. Maybe this is a reason for the impression of the missing punch.
I will ask the other guitar player in our band to play while I am listening.

Are there big differences in SS poweramps like the Samson (low budget) and Art?

 

[Jay Mitchell]

People are saying they don't feel the latency. I really do feel it.

No you don't. The latency in the Axe-Fx creates the same effect as moving your cab about 8 1/2 inches further away from you. If this amount of latency bothered you, you would find yourself unable to play on a large stage.

Maybe this is a reason for the impression of the missing punch.

No.

Are there big differences in SS poweramps like the Samson (low budget) and Art?

Yes. Your rig is inadequate. It would be unable to keep up, volume-wise, with a 40 watt tube amp.

 

[FractalAudio]

BTW, Samson is probably one of the lowest quality manufacturers out there. I think even a Behringer power amp would work better.

Don't buy a Ferrari and then put K-Mart tires on it.

 

[hippietim]

BTW, Samson is probably one of the lowest quality manufacturers out there. I think even a Behringer power amp would work better.

Don't buy a Ferrari and then put K-Mart tires on it.

I'll never understand getting a high-end piece and wondering why it doesn't sound good through a cheap amp/speaker.

The same reasoning would have you plugging Midas Venice into a Samson and wondering why it doesn't sound better than a $200 mixer.

 

[Stratmann]

I'll never understand getting a high-end piece and wondering why it doesn't sound good through a cheap amp/speaker.

The amp is low quality for sure. But I didn't want to buy a lot of equipment just to realize afterwards that it is not my thing. I just didn't think that there is such a big different between solid state poweramps in general. The Art SLA-2 is also a low budget product at least when I look at the price tag. Can I really expect so much more from it?

The speakers I use are good for my opinion. It is just a matter of taste. 2 Thiele cabs with EV12L and 2 Hughes&Kettner with Vintage 30. But I found out that the EV12L are maybe not so well suited to the SS poweramp because they tend to sound colder (more neutral) than a V30.

I just tested the setup with a Engl 50/50 and it sounds way better. But I don't really want to carry such a heavy piece of gear arround. I would make compromises in sound to a certain level, if I can use a solid state pa.

Next what I do is ordering a ART-SLA2 an compare it again. Maybe I can live with it. If it is better than my Samson.

 

[prog_head]

Hi,
I am using the following equipment:

Samson Servo 260 SS poweramp into 2 1x12 Thiele cabs loaded with EV12L

My problem: Whatever tone I dial in, it always sounds a bit cold and thin in comparison to a real tube ampb.

What tube amps are you comparing it to? Having been a longtime EV12L user, those speakers are really pretty lousy. I always thought they were the thing until I really started comparing them. And... following a Samson amp... yikes... I doubt anything would sound too good there. I have compared the AxeFx to my boogies, Dr Z and my Buddas... is it exactly the same... no... does it capture the vibe... yes. And... MUCH more consistently.

Not liking it is fine. Claiming that it is overhyped is wrong. It has lived up to that hype in my book. And many others as well.

 

[joegold]

I'll never understand getting a high-end piece and wondering why it doesn't sound good through a cheap amp/speaker.

The amp is low quality for sure. But I didn't want to buy a lot of equipment just to realize afterwards that it is not my thing. I just didn't think that there is such a big different between solid state poweramps in general. The Art SLA-2 is also a low budget product at least when I look at the price tag. Can I really expect so much more from it?

The speakers I use are good for my opinion. It is just a matter of taste. 2 Thiele cabs with EV12L and 2 Hughes&Kettner with Vintage 30. But I found out that the EV12L are maybe not so well suited to the SS poweramp because they tend to sound colder (more neutral) than a V30.

I just tested the setup with a Engl 50/50 and it sounds way better. But I don't really want to carry such a heavy piece of gear arround. I would make compromises in sound to a certain level, if I can use a solid state pa.

Next what I do is ordering a ART-SLA2 an compare it again. Maybe I can live with it. If it is better than my Samson.

EVM-12Ls are about as good as guitar speakers get.
They are an especially good pairing with the Axe because they don't colour the sound as much as any other guitar speaker you're likely to find. With the flexibility of the Axe you can add or delete your colour there.
They are the most efficient (i.e. loudest watt-for-watt) speaker you can buy for guitar.
They don't distort, ever, unless it's about to blow. If you're after speaker breakup, then they're the wrong choice. But there are ways to get the Axe to mimic speaker breakup if you really need it.

EVM-12Ls in a Thiele cab are a little bit too boomy on the bottom end for me, but lots of hard-rock/metal guys like them.

The ART SLA amps are inexpensive and lightweight, but they are designed as studio reference amps and have very good specs, and more importantly *accurate* sound reproduction.

There *are* big differences between ss power amps.

The Axe does a *very good job* of getting the feeling of an all-tube guitar amp when it's run into a *high quality* FRFR system or into an *audiophile power amp* (ss or tube) driving a guitar cabinet. The Axe is an audiophile piece of gear. It can still get good sounds out of less than optimal gear, but for great sounds you'll need great gear.
However, it will never be *exactly the same* as playing a real tube amp.
In many ways, IMO, it sounds better than that. It's certainly a zillion times more flexible than any tube amp you are likely to run across.

Some players seem to prefer running it into a tube power amp, like the VHT 50/2/50, in order to get the whole tube vibe.
I bought the Axe in order to reduce the weight and bulk of the gear I was taking to gigs so lugging around a tube power amp is not the way I'd go.

One thing about the Axe is that in deciding to use one you're making a fairly big commitment to do things differently than you've done in the past and that commitment also involves buying more gear to support the Axe.
Eg. Decent MIDI footcontroller.
High quality monitoring system (either FRFR or power amp + cab)

 

[Dutch]

BTW, Samson is probably one of the lowest quality manufacturers out there. I think even a Behringer power amp would work better.

Really? I thought they were just a notch above Behringer. Well, goes to show you should never believe a music store guy. BTW, I like a lot of Behringer stuff.

Don't buy a Ferrari and then put K-Mart tires on it.

Whoah. That looks like you've pissed him off there, Stratman!

Does K-Mart sell tires????!?!?! I know K-mart is diverse, but...
Rainman: definitely K-mart.

Woops. Hi-jack.

 

[hippietim]

Really? I thought they were just a notch above Behringer. Well, goes to show you should never believe a music store guy. BTW, I like a lot of Behringer stuff.

Trying to decide if Behringer is worse than Samson is like trying to decide if dog poop smells worse than cat poop. :mrgreen:

 

[mik]

I run my Ultra with a Carvin DCM600 s.s. poweramp into a mesa 4x12 with great results. Ued to run with a mesa head in a 4cm .. then had VHT 2/90/2 for a while (which is a monster amp by the way in terms of tone and especially weight). I found that I am getting pretty much the same sound with Carvin now that I used to get with VHT poweramp. One thing to point out - it was quicker to get good sounds with VHT since all you had is a preamp to tweak. Once you are running with a s.s. poweramp you are pretty much creating everything about your sound from a scratch and that did take me time to figure out what combination of million settings worked for me.

One tip for you - Turn up the s.s. poweramp volume to 50-75% zone and control the volume with the AFX output knob. That gave me some extra headroom/punch that I was looking for.

Mik.

 

[Dutch]

Really? I thought they were just a notch above Behringer. Well, goes to show you should never believe a music store guy. BTW, I like a lot of Behringer stuff.

Trying to decide if Behringer is worse than Samson is like trying to decide if dog poop smells worse than cat poop. :mrgreen:

I have to live with one of both of those. I'd go for the dog as smelling worse. Easily more irritating, not just the poop.

 

[xrist04]

Hi,
I am using the following equipment:

Samson Servo 260 SS poweramp into 2 1x12 Thiele cabs loaded with EV12L

My problem: Whatever tone I dial in, it always sounds a bit cold and thin in comparison to a real tube ampb. It sure is very transparent but for my opinion allmost too much. It lacks the warmth of a real tube amp. The ferquencies are reaching very low but there is still no real punch and the higher frequencies are always a bit overpronounced. If I cut them down I destroy the overall sound.

I will have another testdrive in a rehearsal situation with the band at the weekend. If it fails, I will return the AxeFX. It seems to be not for me. I am afraid to say it is overhyped. Yes, it is good for recording. Yes, it has good effects. Yes, it is very versatile. But is it good enough to replace a real tube amp setup? I doubt it.

Your rig is underpowered. You need to double or triple your SS power. Look at the ART SLA-2, QSC GX5, Carvin DCM1540L or Crown XTi-1000 for some examples.

You should also look at placing EQ blocks at various places in your chains and finding the tone curve that works for you.

 

[mister.friendly]

I'll never understand getting a high-end piece and wondering why it doesn't sound good through a cheap amp/speaker.

The amp is low quality for sure. But I didn't want to buy a lot of equipment just to realize afterwards that it is not my thing. I just didn't think that there is such a big different between solid state poweramps in general. The Art SLA-2 is also a low budget product at least when I look at the price tag. Can I really expect so much more from it?
...
Next what I do is ordering a ART-SLA2 an compare it again. Maybe I can live with it. If it is better than my Samson.

As you are german (I guess) please read this report and the following pages in "Babel's corner": http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5335 - nice pictures included . Forum member "frizze" and I got together at my home comparing my VHT 2502, ART SLA-2, different cabinets, FRFR systems and a lot of other stuff.

This thread should answer some of your questions, give you some direction regarding power amps and make you feel more confident, that it is really doable with the Axe...

 

[Stratmann]

Great forum here! Thanks for your response.

I bought the Axe in order to reduce the weight and bulk of the gear I was taking to gigs so lugging around a tube power amp is not the way I'd go.

Same with me.

One thing about the Axe is that in deciding to use one you're making a fairly big commitment to do things differently than you've done in the past and that commitment also involves buying more gear to support the Axe.

That seems to be the problem. The biggest step - to get rid of old habbits.

Whoah. That looks like you've pissed him off there, Stratman!

Didn't mean to.

Your rig is underpowered.

Yes - but shouldn't it sound good on lower levels?

I will get a SLA-2 to check. And I will stop comparing for a while. When I buy a new tube head, I don't start to compare it to other amps. I just play it.
But the "hyped" advertisement and statements told me different. It said: Same as good as any tube amp, even better. That means, I have to be able to copy my Marshall JVM at least and then make it even better. But this is not true. The axe behaves totally different. For example: When I turn down the volume on the guitar, it sounds quite different. When I play pinch harmonics, the JVM has more life in it. When let the lower E-string ring out, the Axe sounds a bit monotonous and farty. But I don't think, that anybody in the audience will hear it. It's just for my feeling.

The Axe is a good piece of gear. No doubt. I just have to decide if I can take a few disadvantages in change with a lot of other benefits.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

But the "hyped" advertisement and statements told me different. It said: Same as good as any tube amp, even better.

"Better than" is entirely correct. There is a learning curve, as you are discovering. Whether you successfully reach the end of that process is entirely up to you.

For example: When I turn down the volume on the guitar, it sounds quite different.

I have a Marshall preset that responds to the guitar volume control and playing dynamics exactly as a physical amp. It feels better to play than the two classic Marshall amps I owned and gigged with full time.

When I play pinch harmonics, the JVM has more life in it. When let the lower E-string ring out, the Axe sounds a bit monotonous and farty.

Turn off the noise gate. Leave it off until you've completely developed the sound you want. Then, if you really need it, set it so that it has minimum impact on your sound.

The Axe is a good piece of gear. No doubt. I just have to decide if I can take a few disadvantages in change with a lot of other benefits.

If you will learn to use it, the "disadvantages" will turn out to be far less than you now imagine them.

 

[Stratmann]

Back after testing a while.

Checked out a Engl 2/50 power amp. Sounds very powerful but I lost the possibility of using the power amp sims of the Axe. With it engaged it wasn't so great. Without it needs a lot of loudness to start working right.

Switched back to my good old Samson and changed speaker cabs. After some tweaking I really got some good results. The hint of using the low cut in the power amp sim was one of the tricks. The other was changing from EV12L to Vintage 30.

I ended up using 1 EV and 1 V30 which gives me the benefits of both worlds. Now the Axe sounds almost like the Marshall JVM. Tomorrow I will get the SLA-2, to have some more power. The Samson is sure underpowered.

Conclusion: For me the power amp sims of the axe are more useable than the real tube power amp. V30 tend to sound better than the EV12L. At least in the current setup.

Saying all that means that I refer to the tests a made at home. Tomorrow I will have a rehearsal with the band. If it sounds good with the band, I am convinced. I let you know.