Axe-fx power amp modelling possibly still not up to par?

[mortega76]

Anyone can explain why it isn't so?

In my case, it is/was "so".

When I first got my Axe I did several A/B tests with my Triaxis and the Axe going through the power section of my Mesa Simul-Satellite (like a MK IV's power section when it's set to pentode) vs Art SLA1 (in bridged mono mode) and SLA2 power amps, all driving an EVM-12L in an open back cab - which is how I've been playing since the 80s.

There is no "flat" setting on the Satellite.
It's about 95 watts with all 4 power tubes on in "Simul-Class" mode.
For jazz, the Satellite simply can not handle the bottom end at loud volumes as well the SLA's.
That's true for most tube amps that I've used. I.e. Even with a 100 watt power section the bottom end will break up if you're playing block chords with a dark tone with a loud drummer.

For pop, rock, and R&B the Satellite sounds a bit more authentic than the SLA's but it's too hard to tame the top end.

I.e. For my purposes the SLA was much more useful and more musical sounding over all.
I knew that it didn't sound exactly like a real tube amp but i didn't care because it sounded *good*, better actually than my real tube amps.
I ended up selling my Triaxis because the Axe's Mesa sims sounded *better*.
I still have the Satellite, but I don't use it.
I bought an SLA1 at the time and used it for a couple of years quite happily.

But now I'm using a Bryston 2B-LP-Pro (bridged).
It sounds absolutely like the best amp I've ever played through, *better* than any tube amp I've ever owned.
I am not missing any tube mojo on any level now.

IMO The thing about the Axe is that in order for you to really be able to hear the full effect of the amp modelling you need to run it into the absolute best amp and speaker you can find, otherwise all of Cliff's programming will not translate as well as it's capable of.

If you can't afford a good SS power amp then maybe running through a tube power amp will make up for the loss of tube amp feel.
But when I run my Ultra through my Bryston I'm missing absolutely nothing.

I really don't think that 100% copying of a tube amps is what guitarists really desire ultimately.
The reason that ss amps never caught on with guitar players is not because they didn't sound like tube amps.
It's because they sounded bad and tube amps sounded better.
The technology exists today whereby non-tube amps can actually be designed to sound good.
I personally don't care if my amp sounds exactly like some other tube amp I've owned in the past.
All I care about is if it sounds good.
And the Axe sounds *better* than any amp I've ever owned. And at over 35 years of being a professional guitar player and approx. 45 years of playing electric guitar, I've owned a lot of amps.

You mention Jazz and 80's tones so I'm assuming you are talking about clean to medium gain tones... no? These tones IMO, the Axe-fx can get quite easily... Even rock tones are awesome... My clean tones are spectacular... it's just my "kick you in the gonads til you vomit" tone that isn't up to par.

 

[wezx]

"but I love my tone inner ear piercing when comparing tones..."

"1000 watts at 4 ohms"

I say this in all sincerity and with concern for your hearing health...Hearing loss from high SPL is NOT reversible. Anything over about 85 db (depending on length of exposure) is causing damage. Hearing loss in the high-end is deceptively subtle and easy to dismiss with a sense of invincibility, especially when you're young (don't know how old you are.) I can't tell you how many full-time players I know who are EXTREMELY regretful because they didn't take care of their ears earlier in life. I can't imagine what you would possibly need 1000 watts for in a guitar amp???!!!...except maybe to shave off the high-end hairs in your inner ear!

 

[tzrider]

What power amp are you using to monitor the Axe with?
What firmware are you using?
10.03 does the best Twin sim yet, IMO

Were you running into the Twin's actual cabinet?
Otherwise, your A/B test won't tell you anything.

I use a Mesa 2:90 power amp into a pair of ported 1x12 cabinets. The cabinets do give a bit of a bump around 120hz, but I'm taking that into account. While the 2:90 colors the tone a bit, it's not that much and sounds very similar to various SS amps I've used at the volumes we were playing.

The issue is less the tone and more the feel and the way harmonics bloom as you hold a note. While I didn't run my rig into the Twin's cabinet, I'm fairly sure the difference I'm referring to doesn't have much to do with that. A difference in timbre is to be expected, but the difference in feel and sustain is harder to attribute to the cabinet, I think.

I found the result I got completely acceptable, though if I could get the touch sensitivity that I experienced with the Twin, I'd have a use for it.

 

[Dutch]

I think I understand what Mo is saying, he wants the Axe-FX to give the same sound and experience as the tube amps when going into the same cab. And he argues that it should not be necessary to tweak extensively and resort to "artificial" tools like EQs when everything else is the same. If it is accurate then the amp model should provide the same experience through a linear poweramp into said cab as the original real world amp does into said cab.

I see his point. Theoretically I can't argue against that.

Wow Dutch... this (in a nutshell) is everything I've been trying to say... hahahahaha...

Thanks for chiming in...

I was trying to capture your thoughts, there, Mo.

Thankfully, I myself do not have anything to wish for with the Axe-FX. The only single amp I ever owned was a Dual Recto Head '96 (thereabouts, bought it used) with a slant Recto 4x12. I was always struggling with that thing's tone too and I'm much happier with what I get from the Axe. I can remember being alone in a music store guitar department and really digging into a Peavey Classic 2x12 (the tweed-look combo) that had a heavenly early breakup sound in the clean channel. Silly grin time. maybe the air pressure was exactly right at the time... The overdrive wasn't on the same level, though. But I have had a silly grin with the Axe-FX too. Not with the amps in between, the Recto and the Vetta, but I'm loving what I get with the Axe.

I have been thinking about a tweaking session with a pro guitarist I know who has his own studio, a couple of top notch classics and also owns an Axe-FX. These kinds of threads make me think it may be better to wallow in blissful ignorance. Because I am the kind of guy that would hear the difference and prefer it... When I went shopping for studio monitors I never failed to pick the most expensive ones out of the wall with my eyes closed. :lol:

Then again I can compromise for practicality's sake (No money, no room, no occassion for a stack of amps, can't ever find one amp that does what the Axe amp block does) and I don't mind to use the tools to get where I want to go. It would be great if we could do without, though...

 

[browlett]

I sometimes ask myself things like this...

If I am at a gig somewhere in a bar and i've got my axe fx set up to sound like a 5150 (for example for the sake of this particular discussion) and I am really close... will the average dude in my audience say, "I don't know man... it's close, but I think the midrange isn't quite exactly like the "real" 5150's i've heard in the past."???

And, would the guitar players in the audience say it? How about any chicks in the crowd?"

And, would that also be enough to offset the effects, the other amp sound i'd use in the show, and the fact that it's "all in one" and I can make it all sound great & change everything by stepping on 1 button?

I'm just sayin'.

If that were the case then my old POD 2.3 would have been enough no? To be honest... I never hear what the "average joe" hears out off stage so I can only get my sound on stage to sound as best as possible. I can't even remember the last time I specifically asked "how did my amp sound?" Because I can only hear how it sounds to me...


I've been jamming out on the Axe-fx live and in the "studio" (my house) for several years and up until recently I never had a chance to A/B the Axe-fx up against some top notch tube amps...

Don't get me wrong, here... I agree with that. Obviously, if I didn't care about getting good, accurate, nice tone - I wouldn't have paid what i did for my Ultra. My larger point was just that it's easy to get bogged down in the minute details to the point of paralysis. Sometimes I catch myself worrying too much about trying to sound exactly like something/someone else rather than just trying to make sure that my sound is good (in and of itself). This thread reminded me of myself here and there and I thought I'd chime in.

 

[mortega76]

"but I love my tone inner ear piercing when comparing tones..."

"1000 watts at 4 ohms"

I say this in all sincerity and with concern for your hearing health...Hearing loss from high SPL is NOT reversible. Anything over about 85 db (depending on length of exposure) is causing damage. Hearing loss in the high-end is deceptively subtle and easy to dismiss with a sense of invincibility, especially when you're young (don't know how old you are.) I can't tell you how many full-time players I know who are EXTREMELY regretful because they didn't take care of their ears earlier in life. I can't imagine what you would possibly need 1000 watts for in a guitar amp???!!!...except maybe to shave off the high-end hairs in your inner ear!

Hello there Walt... thank you very much for your concern over my well being...

To be honest... I only ever turn the amp to "ear piercing levels" either at amp fests or when I'm trying to dial in a tone... as a band member I always make it a point to level out every single band component during our practices and I am always at the mercy of whatever front of house engineer is at whatever venue we are playing at the time. The cool thing in our band is that we all practice (specifically our drummer) with a metronome so that we all get "trained" to play our individual parts even if we can or can't hear each other or even ourselves. I've played at a venue where the sound guy actually told me... "come on guy... look where you're playing at, you don't need that many speakers..." he then proceeded to have me lower my volume to a level where I couldn't even hear it 6 feet behind me. :lol:

My whole purpose for having that much power and that many speakers is so that if there ever comes a time for me to need it... it will be readily available... similar to why we've all purchased the Axe-fx... no?

 

[browlett]

mortega76,

The more that you tell us things, I'm starting to "get it" now with what you're looking for. You're one of those guys who likes to crank his guitar as loud as possible through a wall of speakers. How (again) are you running your Axe Fx? I remember you saying through a traditional guitar power amp and a ton of cabinets. But, what type of cabinet?

 

[mortega76]

mortega76,

The more that you tell us things, I'm starting to "get it" now with what you're looking for. You're one of those guys who likes to crank his guitar as loud as possible through a wall of speakers. How (again) are you running your Axe Fx? I remember you saying through a traditional guitar power amp and a ton of cabinets. But, what type of cabinet?

In all the A/B'ing it's been through some Mills Acoustic cabs... some had V30's, some had V30's/K100's in X-pattern, some had K100's and some had some Scumback H75 or M75 with V30's in X-pattern... the first time around (a while back) it was powered with a QSC GX5 (didn't know it was a Class H when I bought it) and it didn't even come close... so it pushed me to look for a better power amp. I found the Peavey PV1500 which was a Class AB power amp and it wasn't as harsh as the QSC when I A/B'd them at the practice room... Now I'm running the Peavey PV1500... and in the amp fests we tried both the 300 watts at 8ohm and 1000 watts (bridged) in 8 ohm into the cab(s). Amp sim to amp on the 5150, it didn't come close on mimicing the sound of the amp with my Axe-fx and PV1500 until I put some massive GEQ in there at my buddy Paul's house... but in the amp fest it didn't even come close to having the same meat or dynamics as the other high end tube amps in the room (even with heavy EQ).

I'm going to hopefully be going to my buddy Paul's house either today or tomorrow... he bought an Axe-fx after we A/B'd his ENGL SE - Peavey 5150 into two Mills Acoustic cabs and got them sounding similar at his house with the GEQ... so it's going to be interesting to see how it compares to the QSC RMX 2450 he bought (which he wants to send back because he said it doesn't sound as good as the 5150/Axe-fx in 4CM).

 

[paulmapp8306]

What power amp are you using to monitor the Axe with?
What firmware are you using?
10.03 does the best Twin sim yet, IMO

Were you running into the Twin's actual cabinet?
Otherwise, your A/B test won't tell you anything.

I use a Mesa 2:90 power amp into a pair of ported 1x12 cabinets. The cabinets do give a bit of a bump around 120hz, but I'm taking that into account. While the 2:90 colors the tone a bit, it's not that much and sounds very similar to various SS amps I've used at the volumes we were playing.

The issue is less the tone and more the feel and the way harmonics bloom as you hold a note. While I didn't run my rig into the Twin's cabinet, I'm fairly sure the difference I'm referring to doesn't have much to do with that. A difference in timbre is to be expected, but the difference in feel and sustain is harder to attribute to the cabinet, I think.

I found the result I got completely acceptable, though if I could get the touch sensitivity that I experienced with the Twin, I'd have a use for it.

This is my experience too. it wasnt the tone with the SLA, if anything being a flatter response than the VHT it sounded maybe better. it was however the dynamic feel and indeed bloom and harmonics that the VHT has the ART doesnt. SS Amps have a better dynamic range than tune Power amps - but they dont IMO generate harmonics in the same way. In theory the axe should generate them - but whether the ART wasnt letting them through I dont now. the VHt was just better in tht department.

As for VHT v FRFR - there is no comparison. your listening to two different versions of tone - one a mic'd "isolated" tone the other raw unmic'd tone. If you had real amps in the room with the FRFR and VHT axe rigs Id bet the VHt was closer to the real amps "in the room". not a good or bad thing, its what you want and what your used to, just my thoughts.