Axe-fx power amp modelling possibly still not up to par?

[mortega76]

Please don't take this as a stab at the Axe-fx... I only ask this because I want the best possible sound out of my Axe-fx... If by me voicing my concerns helps in any way shape or form to advance the "sound" of the Axe-fx for everyone then I'm glad I'm doing it... I'm a digital guy... and I've always believed that digital is the way to go...

I've used two different power amps... a Class H (QSC GX5) and a Class AB (Peavey PV1500)... I've done some A/B'ing with tube amps and a couple of times it has come up short and a couple of times it has "equaled" or "bested" the tube amps at the time... this last time I put it up against some tube amps it wasn't even close on the harmonic complexity that the tube amps possessed... call it noise, call it tube depth, call it whatever it is... it just wasn't there. It was as if a big chunk of the mid to mid/highs was gutted out... dynamics were nowhere close to the other amps in the room going through the same cabs.

I've asked a similar question in the past and I will say that the power amp modeling has made leaps and bounds over previous versions... especially with 7.xx, 9.xx and 10.03...

Lower gain folks seem to be able to get great tone out of the Axe-fx, and I've actually gotten some great punchy clean tones out of my Axe-fx... so I'm wondering if this affects higher gain amp sims more so than lower gain amp sims... Folks like Jay and Scott (lower gain to mid gain players) have had great success in A/B'ing their tones to tube amps with great success.

Are the amp sims being modeled at lower volumes? Are they A/B'd at ear ripping volumes to get good feel for how they compare to their physical counterparts?

Also, I've read folks here (and on other forums) who love the sound of their Axe-fx with the 4CM into the power section of a tube amp (or simply just get a tube power amp to drive their Axe-fx) have great success since earlier firmware versions since they are bypassing the virtual power amp section.

What are everyone's thoughts?

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Your results are not typical, and there is nothing magic about your preferred style of music that makes the Axe-Fx unsuitable. If you want to match the sound of a specific amp, you really need to use that amp as a reference while you tweak your Axe-Fx. There is no way you're going to be able to do this at an "amp show," you're going to have to buy, borrow, or rent the amp and keep it for a few days while you work out the settings in the Axe-Fx. IOW, you need to pay your dues. No more, no less. Complaining here will never get you what you say you want.

There's no shortcoming in the Axe-Fx that is causing your problems. If you can't set it up to your liking on your own, you need either to get in-person help from a knowledgeable individual or sell the Axe-Fx and buy an amp that does what you want.

 

[mortega76]

Your results are not typical, and there is nothing magic about your preferred style of music that makes the Axe-Fx unsuitable. If you want to match the sound of a specific amp, you really need to use that amp as a reference while you tweak your Axe-Fx. There is no way you're going to be able to do this at an "amp show," you're going to have to buy, borrow, or rent the amp and keep it for a few days while you work out the settings in the Axe-Fx. IOW, you need to pay your dues. No more, no less. Complaining here will never get you what you say you want.

There's no shortcoming in the Axe-Fx that is causing your problems. If you can't set it up to your liking on your own, you need either to get in-person help from a knowledgeable individual or sell the Axe-Fx and buy an amp that does what you want.

Thanks for chiming in Jay...

This thought process doesn't really make sense... non of the real world (high gain) amps needed to be A/B'd to any other amps to get a great "feel" out of them. So you are saying that any (high gain) amp sim I want to use in the Axe-fx has to be A/B'd to it's real world counterpart for it to sound good? I know you're going to say this applies to any amp sim... but I've gotten great results with low gain amp sims.

FWIW I am not trying to complain, I'm trying to get as much insight as possible to get my Axe-fx to keep up with some of the great sounding tube amps I've had a chance to listen to right next to the Axe-fx.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Slightly different metric than Jay's opinion here.

I do think the power amp modeling is up to par, I think it exceeds 'par'. In clean to lower gain amps - which is an enormous spectrum of amps - the power amp is much more 'in play' than the super hi-gain modern metal brootlz. So a better 'test' of power amp capabilities would those amps that the power amp - and I am referring to Plexi type sounds in particular - are a tremendous component of the end sound.

The power amp section of any amp is there to amplify what comes in front of it. Some lend more 'color' than others. The modern metal 'djent' sounds I've listened to do not show much of any of that power amp 'color' to my ear. They show a very tight, very uncolored sound. The gain, aka 'color', is almost completely from the preamp.

I would hazard that the actual output volume is what the real metric in discussion is. Not the power amp modeling in the Axe-FX.

IMHO.

 

[electronpirate]

No, I think it's pretty close. IMO not perfect, but there is a bit of work that needs to be done on OUR part to get it right. Focusing on just one amp REALLY helps. They are all different animals. Cliff's thread on high gain tones I've been told helps quite a bit.

The point is I think it's our (less technically inclined) understanding of it that lacks more than 'not up to par'.

That being said, I think it's interesting that one of the knocks on the Axe-FX early was that it couldn't do mid-gain things all that well.

R

 

[AlbertA]

Your results are not typical, and there is nothing magic about your preferred style of music that makes the Axe-Fx unsuitable. If you want to match the sound of a specific amp, you really need to use that amp as a reference while you tweak your Axe-Fx. There is no way you're going to be able to do this at an "amp show," you're going to have to buy, borrow, or rent the amp and keep it for a few days while you work out the settings in the Axe-Fx. IOW, you need to pay your dues. No more, no less. Complaining here will never get you what you say you want.

There's no shortcoming in the Axe-Fx that is causing your problems. If you can't set it up to your liking on your own, you need either to get in-person help from a knowledgeable individual or sell the Axe-Fx and buy an amp that does what you want.

Thanks for chiming in Jay...

This thought process doesn't really make sense... non of the real world (high gain) amps needed to be A/B'd to any other amps to get a great "feel" out of them. So you are saying that any (high gain) amp sim I want to use in the Axe-fx has to be A/B'd to it's real world counterpart for it to sound good? I know you're going to say this applies to any amp sim... but I've gotten great results with low gain amp sims.

FWIW I am not trying to complain, I'm trying to get as much insight as possible to get my Axe-fx to keep up with some of the great sounding tube amps I've had a chance to listen to right next to the Axe-fx.

I think the point is if you want to emulate a tone you heard from an amp specifically, you'll have to a/b the axe-fx against it.

 

[AlbertA]

Did you use actual guitar cabinets? FRFR?

 

[Jay Mitchell]

This thought process doesn't really make sense...

Makes perfect sense. If you want a particular sound and are having trouble remembering it well enough to dial it in from memory - not an uncommon scenario by any means - the way to get as close as possible is to do a direct comparison.

You acknowledged having no experience with tube amps some time ago. That would lead inevitably to the conclusion that you do not have sufficient "sonic memory" of those sounds to go by memory when you're dialing in the Axe-Fx. If you think you've got a "tone" until you get the opportunity to compare in person, that tends to prove my assertion.

non of the real world (high gain) amps needed to be A/B'd to any other amps to get a great "feel" out of them.

But, until you played through them, you didn't even know what kind of "feel" you were going for. Your problem could be as simple as having one or two parameters out by relatively small amounts, but you don't yet have the background to know that.

So you are saying that any (high gain) amp sim I want to use in the Axe-fx has to be A/B'd to it's real world counterpart for it to sound good?

I'm saying that that's the only hope you have of getting what you want. Other folks won't necessarily need to follow that path.

 

[chris]

i think this entire topic is a moot point.

if the axe fx doesn't sound good to you compared to other amps, then use the other amps.

there is too much opinion involved when it comes to "feel" "tone" "better" "par" etc.

 

[Muris_Varajic]

i think this entire topic is a moot point.

if the axe fx doesn't sound good to you compared to other amps, then use the other amps.

there is too much opinion involved when it comes to "feel" "tone" "better" "par" etc.

Most likely...

 

[biggness]

i think this entire topic is a moot point.

if the axe fx doesn't sound good to you compared to other amps, then use the other amps.

there is too much opinion involved when it comes to "feel" "tone" "better" "par" etc.

I feel the tone would be better if he just PARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRtied.

 

[Never1]

The High and Low Freq Resonance knobs can really bring a sim to life. I have most of my patches running between 8 and 9 on both dials. Seems to liven things up really nice, without my fully understanding what they do.

User error/inexperience is the only thing stopping the axe-fx from delivering. The more you get to know it, the more it blows your mind.

 

[mortega76]

Slightly different metric than Jay's opinion here.

I do think the power amp modeling is up to par, I think it exceeds 'par'. In clean to lower gain amps - which is an enormous spectrum of amps - the power amp is much more 'in play' than the super hi-gain modern metal brootlz. So a better 'test' of power amp capabilities would those amps that the power amp - and I am referring to Plexi type sounds in particular - are a tremendous component of the end sound.

The power amp section of any amp is there to amplify what comes in front of it. Some lend more 'color' than others. The modern metal 'djent' sounds I've listened to do not show much of any of that power amp 'color' to my ear. They show a very tight, very uncolored sound. The gain, aka 'color', is almost completely from the preamp.

I would hazard that the actual output volume is what the real metric in discussion is. Not the power amp modeling in the Axe-FX.

IMHO.

Thanks for chiming in Scott...

I don't necessarily have an issue with "recorded" tones as much as I have with the "live" tones... I've noticed where I a great recorded tone patch will sound horribly thin using a real cab in a live situation. Someone in another thread mentioned Nolly's superbr00talz patch and it sounded pretty good (a bit too much gain, but still pretty good) for recorded tones... but when I took that same patch and used it via my two 4x12 cabs they were neutered on the low to mid range tones... very shrill-like. (I remember some time back have a pretty good Slipknot patch and I had to have the bass all the way to zero and it sounded great... but that same patch sounded horrible live).

You mention modern metal 'djent' sounds... but for me, putting a drive pedal (which seems to be a necessity to accomplish proper djent style tones) kills a lot of the low end to mid growl that I prefer to have in my live tones.

I've gotten great sounding clean tones that have sooooo much body and chime that it's ridiculous how great they sound... all with no clipping. Then I try to work on a defaulted high gain amp sim like the Das Metall or PVH 5105 and it won't get as "loud" without clipping like crazy... then on top of that, it doesn't have any of the "body" or "meat" that the clean patch accomplished.

As far as "actual output volume is what the real metric in discussion is"... I'm not so sure that is the "issue"... because I was pumping 1000 watts at 8 ohm into the same cab that the JVM (for example) was using and it sounded as if a big chunk of the "meat" was taking out.

I will say that they liked the Brit800 amp sim... which again... is more of a medium gain amp.

P.S. One of the best sounding amp sims that has a lot of mid growl goodness is the HAD ODS1 (or I might be thinking of the SPEC OD1/2... I'll have to check tonight...). That amp sim is meatier that a lot of the high gain amp sims in the Axe-fx... maybe I should just put a drive pedal in front of that and be done with it... :lol:

I do appreciate everyone's input on this topic...

 

[mortega76]

No, I think it's pretty close. IMO not perfect, but there is a bit of work that needs to be done on OUR part to get it right. Focusing on just one amp REALLY helps. They are all different animals. Cliff's thread on high gain tones I've been told helps quite a bit.

The point is I think it's our (less technically inclined) understanding of it that lacks more than 'not up to par'.

That being said, I think it's interesting that one of the knocks on the Axe-FX early was that it couldn't do mid-gain things all that well.

R

I can see where you're coming from as far as "work that needs to be done on OUR part to get it right"... when a buddy of mine Paul and I focused on getting the PVH 5105 (on 10.01) to sound like his 5150 with similar to almost exact same settings... we were unsuccessful in getting it to sound similar with only the amp sim... it wasn't until we added some massive PEQ after the amp that it livened up. Which leads me to believe that there is "something" missing with just the amp sim alone... in this case I'm speaking of only the PVH 5105 compared to a 5150 amp.

As far as Cliff's thread on high gain tones... it really did help to tighten up the flubby low end in older firmware versions... but now I don't think it's needed as much with the 10.03 improvements.

 

[mortega76]

I think the point is if you want to emulate a tone you heard from an amp specifically, you'll have to a/b the axe-fx against it.

We have done this very thing with the PVH 5105 and 5150 head... and with just the amp sim alone we were unsuccessful.

Did you use actual guitar cabinets? FRFR?

Yes this was done with 4x12 cabs.

 

[mortega76]

This thought process doesn't really make sense...

Makes perfect sense. If you want a particular sound and are having trouble remembering it well enough to dial it in from memory - not an uncommon scenario by any means - the way to get as close as possible is to do a direct comparison.

You acknowledged having no experience with tube amps some time ago. That would lead inevitably to the conclusion that you do not have sufficient "sonic memory" of those sounds to go by memory when you're dialing in the Axe-Fx. If you think you've got a "tone" until you get the opportunity to compare in person, that tends to prove my assertion.

non of the real world (high gain) amps needed to be A/B'd to any other amps to get a great "feel" out of them.

But, until you played through them, you didn't even know what kind of "feel" you were going for. Your problem could be as simple as having one or two parameters out by relatively small amounts, but you don't yet have the background to know that.

[quote:avw1j528]So you are saying that any (high gain) amp sim I want to use in the Axe-fx has to be A/B'd to it's real world counterpart for it to sound good?

I'm saying that that's the only hope you have of getting what you want. Other folks won't necessarily need to follow that path.[/quote:avw1j528]
In the specific case with the PVH 5105 amp sim (alone) and 5150 head... there was no need for any "sonic memory" because we were A/B'ing then side by side with identical Mills Acoustic cabs.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

a buddy of mine Paul and I focused on getting the PVH 5105 (on 10.01) to sound like his 5150 with similar to almost exact same settings...

Well, there's a big part of your problem: you're trying to listen with your eyes ("similar to almost exact same settings") instead of your ears. This is what I'm talking about when I say you need to pay your dues. Until you learn the effect the controls have on the sound and how to adjust them to get the sound you want, you're going to struggle with anything as deep as the Axe-Fx. Whether the controls are set the same as the physical amp is irrelevant. What's important is the sound (and feel) you're getting.

 

[mortega76]

i think this entire topic is a moot point.

if the axe fx doesn't sound good to you compared to other amps, then use the other amps.

there is too much opinion involved when it comes to "feel" "tone" "better" "par" etc.

I feel the tone would be better if he just PARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRtied.

That was funny... hahahahahaha...

Only problem is that "when it's time to party.... we will party hard..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WccfbPQNMbg

 

[mortega76]

The High and Low Freq Resonance knobs can really bring a sim to life. I have most of my patches running between 8 and 9 on both dials. Seems to liven things up really nice, without my fully understanding what they do.

User error/inexperience is the only thing stopping the axe-fx from delivering. The more you get to know it, the more it blows your mind.

I know things changed a bit with 10.03 so I will definitely try these settings tonight... hopefully my "sonic memory" will hold up!

Thanks for chiming in!

 

[mortega76]

a buddy of mine Paul and I focused on getting the PVH 5105 (on 10.01) to sound like his 5150 with similar to almost exact same settings...

Well, there's a big part of your problem: you're trying to listen with your eyes ("similar to almost exact same settings") instead of your ears. This is what I'm talking about when I say you need to pay your dues. Until you learn the effect the controls have on the sound and how to adjust them to get the sound you want, you're going to struggle with anything as deep as the Axe-Fx. Whether the controls are set the same as the physical amp is irrelevant. What's important is the sound (and feel) you're getting.

I should mention that we did adjust settings in the basic parameters (master, low, mid, high & drive) including the presence as well... we used the 1:1 settings as a starting point... but without using the advanced settings we didn't get it to sound like the 5150 amp.

I understand the "use your ears" concept... but I seem to be having to "use the advance parameters along with massive PEQ" on high gain amp sims and not as much (really none at all) on low to mid gain amp sims.