AXE-FX as a preamp "V" a REAL tube preamp

[peter_traj]

Hey Folks.
I don't gig, so i am speaking in the context of playing the axe at home and at reasonable levels. I have the ultra model and have hooked it's preamp stage (power amp OFF) up to a looper, together with the preamp stage of an Egnater Mod50 amp. So, i have a common power amplifier (the mod50 power stage) but i can toggle between 2 preamps (the axe-fx with its power stage OFF, and the Egnater preamps).
Basically, i am comparing preamps--not power stages (axe-fx "V" Egnater). I figure that, if the axe can replicate a "real" tube preamp, then half the battle is won, as a tube power amp can easily be attached to the axe (mesa 20/20, VHT 2502, etc, etc).
I have not yet tested the axe with a solid state power amp, so i cant comment on whether the axe, with its power stage simulator ON, can make a solid state amp sound "tube-like" (i will be testing this in the future though).
Now, if the axe can replace the preamps found in most popular amps (fender, marshall, mesa, etc), then the axe, together with a real tube power amp attached, will allow us to construct the most versatile rig ever!!! The effects in the axe, IMHO, match the quality of many analog stomp boxes. Together with the sounds of many popular amps, this makes for SUPER versatility, meaning, a multitude of different amps and effect sounds in the one box.
Before i continue, i want to say, that as far as i can hear, 2 different tube "power" amps (assuming the same power tubes are used in both ) do not sound as different as 2 different "pre"amps!!! What i mean is, that in my experience, the preamp "makes the sound" and power amp "makes that sound louder" (again, assuming the same power valves are used in each power amp). PLEEEEASE tell me if you agree/disagree with this statement as i am definitely not an authority on tone.
So, if we can replicate the "sounds" (preamp ones) of popular amps with the axe, then, and once married together with a suitable power amp, we can have all our favorite amp "sounds" in one box!!! What an amazing possibility.
Well, i am pleased to say that as far as my tests have gone, i have managed to replicate the sound of the following Egnater preamps (remember that the Egnater power amp is used as a common power amp):
1. DLX (Fender Deluxe)
2. TWN (Fender Twin)
3. SL2a/b (Marshall Plexi/Hot rod)
4. EG5 (Super high gain????)

Please, if anyone has done similar tests with tube preamps (Mrshall, Fender, mesa triaxis, ADA, CAE, etc), share your thoughts. As far as i am concerned, the axe gets so close to a tube pre amp that the difference is negligible (to my ears).
To those sitting on the AXE-FX fence who want "many" different amp sounds and effects, remember, that going analog requires a Fender clean, a Marshall crunch, a Marshall lead, a SUPER high gain channel, a reverb, digital delay, analog delay, compressor, noise suppressor, chorus, phaser etc, all the sounds that the axe covers (even if they are not 100% accurate--80% is barely discernible from 100% to my eras). Plus, the massive routing chain to switch between all those analog amps and pedals will surely have some effect on your tone.
However, those on the axe-fx fence that only want 1 or 2 different sounds (clean/dirty and a bit of reverb or delay), don't bother buying an axe at all. Just get a fender deluxe reissue, a ts808 pedal, a lee jackson reverb, and an Maxon AD-9 delay and be happy.
The axe-fx is all about "VERSATILITY" IMHO. If you are happy with 80% of the sound that it proposes to replicate, then you will be 100% happy with the axe. If not, then buy a new house to store all the "100%" amps and effects that the axe-fx can do 80% well--good luck.

Cheers, and please reply

 

[joegold]

I know it seems counter-intuitive, but you should try leaving the AFX's power amp sims on too.
It'll sound even better.

Plus you'll have the ability to get what sounds like power amp distortion (from the AFX's power amp sim) without having to play your real power amp real loud.

 

[peter_traj]

I know it seems counter-intuitive, but you should try leaving the AFX's power amp sims on too.
It'll sound even better.

Ok,
i have never tried that. i thought that it might be "too much" like putting using a "cab sim" with a real cab.
Thanks for your idea.

 

[mik]

.. Before i continue, i want to say, that as far as i can hear, 2 different tube "power" amps (assuming the same power tubes are used in both ) do not sound as different as 2 different "pre"amps!!! What i mean is, that in my experience, the preamp "makes the sound" and power amp "makes that sound louder" (again, assuming the same power valves are used in each power amp). PLEEEEASE tell me if you agree/disagree with this statement as i am definitely not an authority on tone.

I would disagree, I find that certain tube preamp and tube poweramp interaction is what makes a great amp head. But it's just my opinion.

Mik.

 

[FractalAudio]

We did double-blind tests between some tube preamps and the Axe-Fx just as a preamp (power amp modeling off) and it was a tie. People couldn't tell which was which.

Now, regarding the "power amp makes that sound louder". Well this is not quite true. For a solid-state power amp yes. However tube power amps, the ones designed for guitar that is, color the sound considerably, some more than others. They impart distortion and alter the frequency response.

If you are using the Axe-Fx into a tube power amp you can either turn the power amp sims on or off. I run with them off most of the time but I play loud and my tube power amp is being pushed. If you are using a solid-state power amp or a tube power amp with a lot of headroom you probably will want to turn them on.

 

[joegold]

We did double-blind tests between some tube preamps and the Axe-Fx just as a preamp (power amp modeling off) and it was a tie. People couldn't tell which was which.

Now, regarding the "power amp makes that sound louder". Well this is not quite true. For a solid-state power amp yes. However tube power amps, the ones designed for guitar that is, color the sound considerably, some more than others. They impart distortion and alter the frequency response.

If you are using the Axe-Fx into a tube power amp you can either turn the power amp sims on or off. I run with them off most of the time but I play loud and my tube power amp is being pushed. If you are using a solid-state power amp or a tube power amp with a lot of headroom you probably will want to turn them on.

I stand corrected, yet again.
Maybe I should just shut the f... up?

 

[peter_traj]

We did double-blind tests between some tube preamps and the Axe-Fx just as a preamp (power amp modeling off) and it was a tie. People couldn't tell which was which

I could match the tube preamps of the Egnater Mod50 without much effort at all. then i would get a long cable and play outside the room while switching between preamps with a looper. I just could not tell which was which!!

If i can match the sounds of a power stage as well (in a test that i am planning), then the AXE is definately a keeper and the most versatile unit on the planet.

 

[G-Man Music]

Thanks for that review/experiment Peter.

For the last two years I had been teetering back and fourth between the Egnater stuff and the Axe-Fx. I might eventually buy both(E2 when it comes out) but for now I'm gunning for the Axe for the simple fact that I can achieve similar tones of the Egnater stuff with the Axe going direct. Reading your experiment helps make that decision easier.

 

[peter_traj]

For the last two years I had been teetering back and fourth between the Egnater stuff and the Axe-Fx. I might eventually buy both(E2 when it comes out) but for now I'm gunning for the Axe for the simple fact that I can achieve similar tones of the Egnater stuff with the Axe going direct. Reading your experiment helps make that decision easier.

Hey Axisman.
When you get the axe, disregard the presets completely. Instead, go to patch 000 and name it "Egnater DLX a" for example. Then remove all the blocks that are in that patch and put an amp block in the first position followed by an EQ. Now copy this preset "000" to 001, 002 and etc, naming the presets acording to which preamp of the Egnater you want to match.You will end up with a blank slate from which to compare the axe preamp with any other you wish.
Now, you must get a loop pedal which has at least 2 loop circuits (loopmaster is a great choice). Connect your guitar lead to the input of the loop pedal and connect the output of the loop pedal to the effects return of the Egnater. Now, coonect the send of the first loop circuit to the input of the axe and then left (or right) output of the axe to the return of the first loop circuit. Now, connect the send of the second loop circuit to the input of the Egnater and the return of the loop pedal to the effects send of the Egnater--i hope you can follow all this.
So what you now have is a direct signal from your guitar to the power stage of the Egnater (bypassing the Egnater preamps altogether. Now, by pressing the first loop circuit stomp switch, you bring the axe fx into that circuit while the Egnater preamps are out and visa versa when you stomp on the other circuit. The is the ultimate way to test drive equipment because you can close your eyes, play the guitar , and switch between preamps with no distraction. This allows you to pick differences much more easily.
Now, go into your amp block, turn the sag knob to "0" (disables the axe power stage), match the volume levels of the axe to the Egnater and seacrch for the amp that is closest to the Egnater preamp. Once you find it, first tweak the amp block's tone stack controls to match the Egnater. If that fails, then go to the EQ for fine adjustment.
This was all i needed to match the Egnater DLX, SL2, and EG5. Because you are using a common power amp (the Egnater), the preamps are effectivaly "naked" and will reveal all good and bad points.
Anyway, i am a novice in the world of tone, but i can tell when things sound the "same" or not--at least i like to think i can. I have a mate here down under that is going to help me who has better ears than i have. I will not sell my Egnater until i test the power stage of the axe-fx (going into a solid state amp), against the Egnaters power amp. This way i will use the axe as a common pre amp and toggle between the Egnater power stage and the axe's power stage.
If i can match them to 90%, then i will make "EGNATER PRESETS" and have an Egnater inside the axe!!!! what a great possibility.

Good luck mate

 

[G-Man Music]

Yeah, I understand your explanation, thanks!

I don't have a mod50 to do that test but that's a great way to nuetralize, so to speak, the two preamps so you can dial in your presets to match the Egnater ones.

Glad it's workin' out for you!

 

[stevehollx]

I find that I prefer the power amp sims off when going into my VHT 2/50/2.

Actually, I kind of like the way that the power amp sim sounds, but even at the lowest setting felt it still didn't sound 'direct' enough. Off seems like I'm missing a little mojo.

I wonder how it would sound running two amps, one with the sim off, and the other with it barely, and blending the two together......hmmm...

 

[stef herbuel]

i tried to keep power amp sim on ....in the ..preamp input of my tube amp (i mean i did't plug in the power amp section , but in the clean channel of my amp)

it may sound curious but if i remember correctly this kind of things were done by lukathe rand eddie van halen, (and maybe hendrix, but i don't know) , they played an amp loud without CAB and instead with a load box , wich take the sound of this amp pushed to a line level
and then feed another tube amp....

(correct me if i'm wrong)

so the good news is that you can do this with axe -fx with the "pushed/cranked" amp you want
in my rivera M60 , at bedroom volume it sound really cool

did someone else tried this ? :?:

 

[Dutch]

I do know both Luke and Eddie used tube amps with load boxes. Eddie drives H&H power amps, which are transistor, into his cabs and a Palmer to record. Not completely sure about Steve's setup, but there's lots of sites dedicated to this kind of stuff.