AX8 vs. Helix: On-The-Fly Programming.

[DavidE]

Exactly. I'm sure plenty of people prefer to have their exp pedals separate. Makes sense.

Sure. The one in the Helix is equal to two, or an SP1, on the AX8. But for live use, the size/weight argument is pretty pointless.

 

[DavidE]

I'm a fractal noob and the AX8 is my first fractal product. I've had all the mass market modelers coming from Boss, Zoom, Digitech, and Line 6. Been gigging with the Line 6 HD500x for years now and I thought that was complicated. It was complicated not because it is not user friendly but it was hard to get a great sound on the fly.

The Helix is in a different ballgame because of that interface and the better amp models. Three clicks and you got a sound you can gig with.

Getting the AX8 was daunting for me since it was my first time. I got the beginners video from Axe Fx tutorials and that helped me immensely. Now, I don't think it's even hard to get around the unit at all. Sure, I could have used a navi pad instead of the navi knobs. But I think it is fairly easy to use on stage. I try to learn to tweak as much as possible on the unit and not depend on AX8 Edit because the AX8 is meant to be used onstage. And I find it great because you can get a great sound on the fly without tweaking the deep parameters.

And I LOVE the Gameboy screen too. It is kinda charming.

This. Honestly, if you're already steeped in Fractal products, I don't know that it makes sense to go with a Helix. The on board navigation can be learned with a bit of time and effort.

 

[DavidE]

I've had a Helix since Oct/Nov last year. I just got my AX8. Here's my take so far:

AX8 pros:

• Deeper Modeling (Helix can only model like up to 12 or so components - heard Paul mention in one of the videos)
• Better routing (Helix only has main path and 1 alt - then loop to lower and 1 alt)

Since you brought it up (SORRY OP!!!, but in a way this has to do with ease of programming), I have comments/questions about your two points above. What do you mean by Deeper Modeling? You make it sound like the Helix models only 12 or so components. I don't think that's correct. I think the modeling goes deep (based on discussions with the programmers), but Line 6 made the decision to limit access (for now at least) to only certain parameters. Fractal allows access to the deeper parameters which is very important to some and really a fabulous feature.

I'm not sure what you mean by better routing on the AX8 as I found its routing very limiting compared to Helix. Perhaps I missed something that will help if/when I get another AX8 down the road.

The Helix can easily have 4 completely independent paths. I think I read that it can have more than that, but I'd have to find it to be sure. You can do serial or parallel paths, you can run them into each other in various ways with splits and merges etc... I haven't gotten that deep into it, but I do have several patches for hybrid guitars where my piezo runs into the aux input and through it's own independent path (2b) and the mag pickups run through paths 1a, 1b and 2a (paths 1a and 1b use one dsp and paths 2a and 2b use the second dsp, so my mags are using the power from more than 1 dsp). I could use mags on 1a and 1b, microphone with effects in 2a and piezo in 2b etc.... That doesn't include all the loops and stuff I don't know yet. Then there's the output routing. XLR, 1/4", headphones and loop outputs are completely independent. Dedicated volume control on the phones output. Volume control that can affect XLR, 1/4" or both. That way I can send XLR to FOH and not mess with the signal they're getting and send the 1/4" to my personal monitor(s) and use the onboard volume control to control the volume of my modeler in my personal monitor without affecting FOH (and not lose my a loop to do so).

With that explanation, how is the routing better on the AX8? I'm assuming it has something to do with the grid, but I didn't clearly understand the grid.

EDIT:

I found the routing answer (mostly, but this doesn't mention the usb out paths and others). It can have four stereo paths. That's how I was coming up with 8 in my head:

Helix has two primary stereo paths—1 and 2—each of which can be:

• Serial—1 input block to 1 output block
• Parallel—1 input block, split and merged before the 1 output block
• Parallel—2 input blocks, merged to 1 output block
• Parallel—1 input block split to 2 output blocks
• True Parallel (dual serial)—2 input blocks to 2 output blocks

The last one is how you get four stereo signal paths. Path 1 blocks can be routed to Path 2 blocks, and depending on where your splits and merges are, Paths 1A, 1B, 2A, and 2B can be set up for "Super Serial", where they all get routed into one gigantic 32-block path. You won't fill all 32 blocks tho', unless you really like EQs, gains, and volume pedals.



All routing is accomplished from the Home screen. It's as simple as selecting an Output bock and then turning the joystick to select its destination. Pushing the joystick displays available destinations in a list.

 

[pima1234]

And that is a really nice feature, for sure!

Sure. The one in the Helix is equal to two, or an SP1, on the AX8. But for live use, the size/weight argument is pretty pointless.

 

[DavidE]

And that is a really nice feature, for sure!

IF the Helix gets auto engage for the wah, I'm going to rewire and add my Mission pedal with the spring for wah, making the footprint even bigger. LOL. I'm not going to argue which device is a better size since that will be different for everyone. I know I'd use at least one, if not two, expression pedals with the AX8 (like I did with the FX8) so there's no practical difference to me. However, having one built into the Helix with its own scribble strip allows for a lot more inputs/outputs on the back panel. I think that's a fair trade off.

 

[MASSDEFECT]

IF the Helix gets auto engage for the wah, I'm going to rewire and add my Mission pedal with the spring for wah, making the footprint even bigger. LOL. I'm not going to argue which device is a better size since that will be different for everyone. I know I'd use at least one, if not two, expression pedals with the AX8 (like I did with the FX8) so there's no practical difference to me. However, having one built into the Helix with its own scribble strip allows for a lot more inputs/outputs on the back panel. I think that's a fair trade off.

lol i chose the AX8 because it can do a spring loaded wah. and that was like a big deal for me. damn the helix's easier UI.

and besides, i'm a clumsy guy and one falling mic cracking that big pretty color screen is an imminent possibility.

 

[DavidE]

lol i chose the AX8 because it can do a spring loaded wah. and that was like a big deal for me. damn the helix's easier UI.

and besides, i'm a clumsy guy and one falling mic cracking that big pretty color screen is an imminent possibility.

It's important to me as well and I hope it's implemented soon. It's been requested a lot. Before the AX8 and Helix I already transitioned to the auto engage spring loaded Dunlop!

I don't know that the screen on the AX8 is less likely to crack from an accident. But it's so much smaller that it's less likely to be hit! ;-) I did cut up unused cell phone screen protectors to cover the big screen and scribble strips. ;-)

 

[Nimbas]

I'm a fractal noob and the AX8 is my first fractal product. I've had all the mass market modelers coming from Boss, Zoom, Digitech, and Line 6. Been gigging with the Line 6 HD500x for years now and I thought that was complicated. It was complicated not because it is not user friendly but it was hard to get a great sound on the fly.

The Helix is in a different ballgame because of that interface and the better amp models. Three clicks and you got a sound you can gig with.

Getting the AX8 was daunting for me since it was my first time. I got the beginners video from Axe Fx tutorials and that helped me immensely. Now, I don't think it's even hard to get around the unit at all. Sure, I could have used a navi pad instead of the navi knobs. But I think it is fairly easy to use on stage. I try to learn to tweak as much as possible on the unit and not depend on AX8 Edit because the AX8 is meant to be used onstage. And I find it great because you can get a great sound on the fly without tweaking the deep parameters.

And I LOVE the Gameboy screen too. It is kinda charming.

I like the rugged functional stuff too. All that fancy stuff to me is only a point of potential

My point being that the OP specifically stated what he did NOT want discussed in his thread, yet you did it anyway. And then posted false information about something as objective as the weight of the Helix. Still, that had NOTHING to do with his question. Why people want to throw in the extraneous stuff no matter what, even though it's been written about on the board ad nauseam. The size of the units wasn't relevant, the tones, the number of models and on and on. None of it was relevant. Some of it was fanboi stuff he specifically stated he didn't want. AND ULTIMATELY YOU DIDN'T ANSWER HIS QUESTION AT ALL! THAT's what I don't get. That's my problem.

How hard is it to respect this request?:

"PLEASE: No bashing, no fanboism and if you have no true experience with these units, do not express an opinion. That may sound rather harsh, but I am making a serious inquiry, and I don't care for Monday morning quarterbacks. Further, this post does not require any discussion of the units' respective tones. In addition, I am not concerned with routing capabilities. I have a full understanding of that and know what I need in that regard. I am inquiring about programming from the unit's on-board panel, only. With that being said.."

Relax man. I'll be alright. Getting all worked up over a post tells me you are wound too tight. I accidentally violated the spirit of the post - whoops. Sorry if I was a little excited and enjoying my morning. I'm not a fanboy, and I have experience with both units so I thought that qualified me to comment. Guess not in your eyes. Not everyone else stayed right on topic but you chose me for hate. Thanks for that. Reminds me why every time I try and come here and have fun - guys like you are rude and make me not want to come back.

How about if you don't like something someone writes you just ignore it and move on? Why do YOU feel the need to put others down as I see you do in many of your posts. My guess is to make yourself feel better. Probably doesn't work though.

 

[Nimbas]

Since you brought it up (SORRY OP!!!, but in a way this has to do with ease of programming), I have comments/questions about your two points above. What do you mean by Deeper Modeling? You make it sound like the Helix models only 12 or so components. I don't think that's correct. I think the modeling goes deep (based on discussions with the programmers), but Line 6 made the decision to limit access (for now at least) to only certain parameters. Fractal allows access to the deeper parameters which is very important to some and really a fabulous feature.

I'm not sure what you mean by better routing on the AX8 as I found its routing very limiting compared to Helix. Perhaps I missed something that will help if/when I get another AX8 down the road.

The Helix can easily have 4 completely independent paths. I think I read that it can have more than that, but I'd have to find it to be sure. You can do serial or parallel paths, you can run them into each other in various ways with splits and merges etc... I haven't gotten that deep into it, but I do have several patches for hybrid guitars where my piezo runs into the aux input and through it's own independent path (2b) and the mag pickups run through paths 1a, 1b and 2a (paths 1a and 1b use one dsp and paths 2a and 2b use the second dsp, so my mags are using the power from more than 1 dsp). I could use mags on 1a and 1b, microphone with effects in 2a and piezo in 2b etc.... That doesn't include all the loops and stuff I don't know yet. Then there's the output routing. XLR, 1/4", headphones and loop outputs are completely independent. Dedicated volume control on the phones output. Volume control that can affect XLR, 1/4" or both. That way I can send XLR to FOH and not mess with the signal they're getting and send the 1/4" to my personal monitor(s) and use the onboard volume control to control the volume of my modeler in my personal monitor without affecting FOH (and not lose my a loop to do so).

With that explanation, how is the routing better on the AX8? I'm assuming it has something to do with the grid, but I didn't clearly understand the grid.

EDIT:

I found the routing answer (mostly, but this doesn't mention the usb out paths and others). It can have four stereo paths. That's how I was coming up with 8 in my head:

Helix has two primary stereo paths—1 and 2—each of which can be:

• Serial—1 input block to 1 output block
• Parallel—1 input block, split and merged before the 1 output block
• Parallel—2 input blocks, merged to 1 output block
• Parallel—1 input block split to 2 output blocks
• True Parallel (dual serial)—2 input blocks to 2 output blocks

The last one is how you get four stereo signal paths. Path 1 blocks can be routed to Path 2 blocks, and depending on where your splits and merges are, Paths 1A, 1B, 2A, and 2B can be set up for "Super Serial", where they all get routed into one gigantic 32-block path. You won't fill all 32 blocks tho', unless you really like EQs, gains, and volume pedals.



All routing is accomplished from the Home screen. It's as simple as selecting an Output bock and then turning the joystick to select its destination. Pushing the joystick displays available destinations in a list.

Clearly you are not understanding the majority of what I wrote. The modeling limitation was mentioned in a youtube video. Look it up if you aren't familiar with it. I didn't come up with it or make it up - it's a reference.

With the routing I am not talking about external routing at all, I am talking about internal routing - yes the grid. If you don't understand the grid as you mentioned you can't understand what I mean by that. I could care less how many different discreet signal paths I can output - what I care about is what I can do with my main one.

For outputs the AX8 can handle an output and an FX output, that's enough for me.

 

[Nimbas]

Dank - based on what I've read in your followup posts - the Helix would be nice for you in my opinion. I base that off your preference to create and edit on the fly without using an external computer. You also mention tone (so close it doesn't matter, diminishing returns, etc..)

If you boil it down to purely the favorable external interface to the device, the Helix is defiantly the standard by which all others should be judged. Line 6 did an amazing job on that. Only time will tell if all that fancy stuff they added will hold up - guess we'll see. Playing live myself I was always a little leary stepping on those little label screens - and who knows if those capacitive foot switches will hold up. Hope they do.

I had the Helix for 6 months or so and it was definitely the easiest unit to work with I've ever had from the unit itself.

The design and navigation kind of reminded me of my Boss GT-100 - will be interesting to see what Boss does next too.

 

[DavidE]

Clearly you are not understanding the majority of what I wrote. The modeling limitation was mentioned in a youtube video. Look it up if you aren't familiar with it. I didn't come up with it or make it up - it's a reference.

With the routing I am not talking about external routing at all, I am talking about internal routing - yes the grid. If you don't understand the grid as you mentioned you can't understand what I mean by that. I could care less how many different discreet signal paths I can output - what I care about is what I can do with my main one.

For outputs the AX8 can handle an output and an FX output, that's enough for me.

So what can the AX8 do routing wise that helix can't? I seriously want to know.

 

[3dognate]

So what can the AX8 do routing wise that helix can't? I seriously want to know.

Yeah... me too. this is like 4th or 5th time I've read something about the AX8 vs The Helix's signal routing.... Helix isn't a "grid" but what can it not do?


And to the OP... I got hands on with my buddy's Helix... editing was nearly auto pilot instantly... I had grasp of it instinctively, almost every assumption that I made for what I wanted to accomplish was spot on. I'm getting around in the AX8 just fine... but I had to put myself through AX8 class.

 

[FractalAudio]

Yeah... me too. this is like 4th or 5th time I've read something about the AX8 vs The Helix's signal routing.... Helix isn't a "grid" but what can it not do?

Put effects in parallel easily.

 

[Tailstop]

Yeah... me too. this is like 4th or 5th time I've read something about the AX8 vs The Helix's signal routing.... Helix isn't a "grid" but what can it not do?


And to the OP... I got hands on with my buddy's Helix... editing was nearly auto pilot instantly... I had grasp of it instinctively, almost every assumption that I made for what I wanted to accomplish was spot on. I'm getting around in the AX8 just fine... but I had to put myself through AX8 class.

Totally agree. The Helix is actually a killer hub for other pedals, an almost perfect access to effects and their parameter controls, and more ways to hook it up than you might believe. It does allow for parallel effects extremely easily, saying otherwise is untrue. Quality effects, solid IRs, easy to use...killer unit. Still, it simply doesn't have that "thing" that I get out of my AxefxII. I would spend more time wondering why but I just don't care. I own both and use both. But when I need to hit the studio or I want to get lost in guitarland I turn on Fracky.

 

[Nimbas]

So what can the AX8 do routing wise that helix can't? I seriously want to know.

Excellent. First let's get on the same page. The Helix has by default with a new patch creation one main path right? The second path is disabled by default. Let's focus on that first main path for this discussion. Now I know at the end it can be routed to different outputs but that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about having your effects in serial or parallel. So option 1 is to just do one serial path. Everything is in line and that is that. Some people prefer though moving the reverb for example to a parallel path so your main signal is dry and strong and the reverb is more mixed in right? The Helix can do this. However, it can only do this once. One split from the main path to a parallel path. You select the effect and hit action and move the joystick down and bam that effect is in paralle. So I can put several effects in that parallel path but they are all affected by each other. So lets say I have my reverb in parallel but I want to next add a delay. I have to either add it to the main path, or the parallel path where the reverb already is. If i put it parallel my delay will be reverberated. If I put it in my main path, i lose my main strong dry signal - but it is clear of the reverb.

On the Axe Fx or AX8 this is way more flexible. Each grid position for any effect can be moved in and out of the main signal path and crossed up with another or not depending on which you want to effect the other. So maybe I want my chorus to cross into my reverb but not the delay or something like that, you can easily do that and the grid gives you lots and lots of routing to get it done.

Hard to explain with just verbage but do you get the idea?

 

[Nimbas]

Totally agree. The Helix is actually a killer hub for other pedals, an almost perfect access to effects and their parameter controls, and more ways to hook it up than you might believe. It does allow for parallel effects extremely easily, saying otherwise is untrue. Quality effects, solid IRs, easy to use...killer unit. Still, it simply doesn't have that "thing" that I get out of my AxefxII. I would spend more time wondering why but I just don't care. I own both and use both. But when I need to hit the studio or I want to get lost in guitarland I turn on Fracky.

It does allow one parallel path off the main signal path and one off the alternate, thats it.

 

[DavidE]

Clearly you are not understanding the majority of what I wrote. The modeling limitation was mentioned in a youtube video. Look it up if you aren't familiar with it. I didn't come up with it or make it up - it's a reference.
.

Well, you cited it so you look it up and post a link. I'm not going to watch a ton of youtube videos to try and find what you're talking about.

 

[Nimbas]

Excellent. First let's get on the same page. The Helix has by default with a new patch creation one main path right? The second path is disabled by default. Let's focus on that first main path for this discussion. Now I know at the end it can be routed to different outputs but that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about having your effects in serial or parallel. So option 1 is to just do one serial path. Everything is in line and that is that. Some people prefer though moving the reverb for example to a parallel path so your main signal is dry and strong and the reverb is more mixed in right? The Helix can do this. However, it can only do this once. One split from the main path to a parallel path. You select the effect and hit action and move the joystick down and bam that effect is in paralle. So I can put several effects in that parallel path but they are all affected by each other. So lets say I have my reverb in parallel but I want to next add a delay. I have to either add it to the main path, or the parallel path where the reverb already is. If i put it parallel my delay will be reverberated. If I put it in my main path, i lose my main strong dry signal - but it is clear of the reverb.

On the Axe Fx or AX8 this is way more flexible. Each grid position for any effect can be moved in and out of the main signal path and crossed up with another or not depending on which you want to effect the other. So maybe I want my chorus to cross into my reverb but not the delay or something like that, you can easily do that and the grid gives you lots and lots of routing to get it done.

Hard to explain with just verbage but do you get the idea?

Also the bypass mode of each effect has 5 different modes so your routing can get really interesting. So I could have a reverb in parallel and a delay on the main path and through the reverb, but then have the delay and reverb not output when just the delay was disabled through that path, or something like that. Tons and tons of variations.

 

[DavidE]

Excellent. First let's get on the same page. The Helix has by default with a new patch creation one main path right? The second path is disabled by default. Let's focus on that first main path for this discussion. Now I know at the end it can be routed to different outputs but that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about having your effects in serial or parallel. So option 1 is to just do one serial path. Everything is in line and that is that. Some people prefer though moving the reverb for example to a parallel path so your main signal is dry and strong and the reverb is more mixed in right? The Helix can do this. However, it can only do this once. One split from the main path to a parallel path. You select the effect and hit action and move the joystick down and bam that effect is in paralle. So I can put several effects in that parallel path but they are all affected by each other. So lets say I have my reverb in parallel but I want to next add a delay. I have to either add it to the main path, or the parallel path where the reverb already is. If i put it parallel my delay will be reverberated. If I put it in my main path, i lose my main strong dry signal - but it is clear of the reverb.

On the Axe Fx or AX8 this is way more flexible. Each grid position for any effect can be moved in and out of the main signal path and crossed up with another or not depending on which you want to effect the other. So maybe I want my chorus to cross into my reverb but not the delay or something like that, you can easily do that and the grid gives you lots and lots of routing to get it done.

Hard to explain with just verbage but do you get the idea?

Ok, I get that. I haven't tried putting multiple effects in their own parallel paths on the Helix. I'll have to look into whether that can be done at all on the Helix. Perhaps not.

 

[Nimbas]

Well, you cited it so you look it up and post a link. I'm not going to watch a ton of youtube videos to try and find what you're talking about.

Between about 7 and 8 minutes in. 15 variations for the preamp as quoted here. I'd wager the Axe has way more than that.