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AX8 spring reverb vs FM3

arpy911

New Member
The FM3 has many improvements over the AX8, obviously. I've used the AX8 for years now and want to move over. But the primary reverb I use on the AX8 is a spring reverb, which I've managed to make sound terrific for my use. But on the FM3, I just cannot get it to sound anything like the AX8. The sound I'm going for is just a typical Fender Twin style reverb. I've entered the same values on the FM3 that I'm using for the AX8 and it's completely different. None of the other presets on the FM3 really sound like real spring reverb to me ... they are "drippier" sounding but it just doesn't sound like Fender reverb. I have the block exactly where it is in my live AX8 preset but moving it around (before amp, after amp, after cabinet, running it 100 percent wet and mixing it back in at the end. etc.) doesn't get it done. I've played with the various parameters to no avail.

(I understand that a lot of people dislike spring reverb and I understand that hall and plate reverbs are great and do a better job at ambiance, but I'm trying to knock a specific tone that is highly spring reverb dependent.)

Any tips? Or is it just so different you just can't get there from here anymore?
 

arpy911

New Member
Appreciate the reply. I have, thank you ... and I've played around with it. It's not really the "drip" that's eluding me, it's just the general character of the spring reverb in the AX8 that I'm missing. I spent a lot of time getting it just exactly perfect on the AX8 (even adding some delay to it to get the "bounce" I wanted) but I am not even in the ballpark on the FM3.

I'm not suggesting that the FM3 sounds bad -- and that's terrific tone and touch on that clip -- but to my ears it's not really getting me what I would get just plugging into a Twin or a Deluxe Reverb with moderate reverb. It's almost as if the FM3 spring reverb is kind of an emphasized caricature of a drippy spring reverb rather than an approximation of real tube-driven longer spring reverb set at a more subtle level, which is what I like on the AX8. The FM3 sounds cool and drippy but when I use Fender reverb, I'm putting it on 2 or 3, not drenching the guitar with it, so it practically disappears in the mix of the band, but it's still there.

This is with the band, the guitar is the AX8 direct, doing the Garcia thing with the Dead band I play lead in.


And just a few seconds isolated from the last show we did ...


Having it be longer and more subtle works really well with something like an envelope filter with a really sharp attack. That doesn't sound right (to me) with the FM3, it's too much drip city, even with the boing parameter set all the way down.
 

Rex

Legend!
Yeah, pull back the Boing a bit. Maxed out, it's kind of over the top. Also, experiment with Number of Springs.
 

arpy911

New Member
What were you AX8 settings?
I have messed with it so many times I'm not sure what was stock on the advance parameters, so pardon all the detail ; )

Large spring, high quality, 2.37 seconds, 100 size, 2 echo density, 0 predelay, .600 HF time, 1.000 LF time, 400.0 Hz LF crossover, 100% stereo width, -40 dB early level, 30% early diffusion, 60% early diff time, 50% early decay, 10% mic spacing, -3.0 dB late level, 50% late diffusion, 40% late diff time, 0 late input mix, 0 wall diffusion. 0 mod and 0.1 mod rate. 4 springs, 2.85 spring drive. No ducker.

250 hZ low cut, 20000 hZ high cut, 4.45 db gain on 3075 hZ Q .100.
 

iaresee

Administrator
Moderator
I have messed with it so many times I'm not sure what was stock on the advance parameters, so pardon all the detail ; )

Large spring, high quality, 2.37 seconds, 100 size, 2 echo density, 0 predelay, .600 HF time, 1.000 LF time, 400.0 Hz LF crossover, 100% stereo width, -40 dB early level, 30% early diffusion, 60% early diff time, 50% early decay, 10% mic spacing, -3.0 dB late level, 50% late diffusion, 40% late diff time, 0 late input mix, 0 wall diffusion. 0 mod and 0.1 mod rate. 4 springs, 2.85 spring drive. No ducker.

250 hZ low cut, 20000 hZ high cut, 4.45 db gain on 3075 hZ Q .100.
That's largely defaults.

Went back and forth with some algorithms your lone guitar clip. I'd try Large Plate or London Plate. I wouldn't make their size that big though. At the defaults the dwell on the plate algorithms is plenty deep.
 

Rick

Fractal Fanatic
Appreciate the reply. I have, thank you ... and I've played around with it. It's not really the "drip" that's eluding me, it's just the general character of the spring reverb in the AX8 that I'm missing. I spent a lot of time getting it just exactly perfect on the AX8 (even adding some delay to it to get the "bounce" I wanted) but I am not even in the ballpark on the FM3.

I'm not suggesting that the FM3 sounds bad -- and that's terrific tone and touch on that clip -- but to my ears it's not really getting me what I would get just plugging into a Twin or a Deluxe Reverb with moderate reverb. It's almost as if the FM3 spring reverb is kind of an emphasized caricature of a drippy spring reverb rather than an approximation of real tube-driven longer spring reverb set at a more subtle level, which is what I like on the AX8. The FM3 sounds cool and drippy but when I use Fender reverb, I'm putting it on 2 or 3, not drenching the guitar with it, so it practically disappears in the mix of the band, but it's still there.

This is with the band, the guitar is the AX8 direct, doing the Garcia thing with the Dead band I play lead in.


And just a few seconds isolated from the last show we did ...


Having it be longer and more subtle works really well with something like an envelope filter with a really sharp attack. That doesn't sound right (to me) with the FM3, it's too much drip city, even with the boing parameter set all the way down.
Nice guitar! Is it an Irwin? Sorry for the derail… had to ask. You just don’t see that every day.
 

arpy911

New Member
Wetter than it should be, but it's got no sproing to it.

Your tone is much, much nicer. Would you consider sharing your prese

Oh, that sounds great ... actually, I find playing the Dead stuff live you want a little more reverb than you think you need because it does disappear into the mix.

Let me see if I can dial it in a little on the FM3 and I will share -- although the patch only works on guitars with the effects loop. (That's just an Irwin knockoff I've had since 2006 or so but it has the right electronics -- DiMarzio Super IIs split, Wald unity gain buffer. Middle pickup split 95 percent of the time although on that little live clip I was using the neck pickup split for a change of pace.)

The basics to my preset are very simple, though, silverface twin, tone controls a la Jerry -- treble dimed, mids up high, bass on 1 -- bright on and turn the power amp simulation off, adjust the gain and master so it breaks up just a little bit. Cabinet is my old JBL E-120 IR that Jay Mitchell made for me more than a decade ago in the old AxeFX Ultra days -- that is widely available but I can post it if you want it. Although apparently I can't share URLs yet.
 

iaresee

Administrator
Moderator
Cabinet is my old JBL E-120 IR that Jay Mitchell made for me more than a decade ago in the old AxeFX Ultra days -- that is widely available but I can post it if you want it. Although apparently I can't share URLs yet.
I’ll have a look for it. I used the 120 1x12 factory IRs but they’re missing some girth I think.

You can post URLs now. :) Welcome!

Looks like you’re not too far from me up here in Manchester BTW.
 

arpy911

New Member
Ha ... I did just buy a back up AX8 on Reverb. Remains to be seen if I can get the whole thing working on the FM3 based on the memory limitation because I have one preset with all the effects Jerry used -- octave, envelope, phaser, overdrive and delay. But there may be a way to set up the basics and switch presets for the various effects combinations, which is probably better using the three footswitches instead of how I have it set up on the AX8, where each effect is on its own switch.

Here is the JBL IR at least ... I have a K-110 done at the same time, although this was back in the ancient days ... I used some sort of small condenser to record the sweeps based on Jay's recommendation for what I had around at the time ; )

The K-110s are great sounding speakers but they just do not cut the mix in the band the way the E-120 (or the E-120 IR) does. The E-120 sounds harsher on its own but it cuts beautifully.

I do remember A/B'ing the cabs vs the IR (on a QSC K12 as it predated the CLR) and really not hearing much if any difference.

001-E120axefx2.syx

These were the cabs which I've since re-homed ... that 2X12 weighed well over 100 pounds when it was in its road case, I used to muscle it up a dog ramp into the back of my station wagon back in the day. The AX8 is a lot lighter ... lol

hardtruckers.jpg
 

iaresee

Administrator
Moderator
@arpy911 I've been itching for a Hard Truckers capture for ages! This is fantastic! Thank you!\

Edit: Holy cow! I had it in my unit already annnnnd literally it's in U001 in both my III and FM3! :D You know you're chin deep in IRs when...

Screen Shot 2021-06-21 at 11.33.22 AM.png
 
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