AX8: Odd Tuner behavior (high Eb)

benvigil

benvigil

Experienced
Maybe it gets a bad wrap, but I've found that once it calms down it works really, really well.

That said, I ran into a problem tuning at least 3 of my guitars: the high E (Eb actually) tunes perfectly when tuning the open string, but when I tried tuning using the 12th fret harmonic it is 10+ cents sharp -- and it is very repeatable. Every other string measures identical with both methods.

So I'm trying to figure out what is causing it. Intonation, nut work, and fret work are not an issue here, indeed can't be. A bad high E string on 3 guitars and 3 different brand strings? Nope.

Any ideas?
 
You might have a string that's misbehaving. Micro-kinks and other anomalies can play hell with intonation. Change the string and see what you get.

Edit: the high-E string is the weakest, and the most prone to injury.
 
yek said:
3rd page of Tuner ....
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Ahhh, thanks! Everything is 0 and Offsets is set to OFF.

Rex said:
You might have a string that's misbehaving. Micro-kinks and other anomalies can play hell with intonation. Change the string and see what you get.

Edit: the high-E string is the weakest, and the most prone to injury.
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It shows this behavior on 3 guitars (that I've tested): one with EB Hybrid 10s, one with EB Slinkys, and another with D'Addario XL 10s.
 
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benvigil said:
Ahhh, thanks! Everything is 0 and Offsets is set to OFF.


It shows this behavior on 3 guitars (that I've tested): one with EB Hybrid 10s, one with EB Slinkys, and another with D'Addario XL 10s.
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Still worth a try. It's possible that all your guitars get abused in the same way, injuring the same string.
 
Have you used another tuner to determine whether you get the same behaviour? How old are your strings?
 
Two sets have been replaced within the last week, the other one maybe 3 weeks ago, but played very little.

I tested a Korg and a Snark clip on and they both display spot on. I did notice that when I use the neck pick up the spread is only 2-4 cents off. With the bridge pickup, the spread is easily 10 cents.
 
The Axe-FX II tuner isn't very accurate around an octave above the high E and up. It sounds like the AX8 could have the same thing happening.
 
Bakerman said:
The Axe-FX II tuner isn't very accurate around an octave above the high E and up. It sounds like the AX8 could have the same thing happening.
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I did a forum search and didn't find any comments about it, but that's really good intel to know.
 
I wonder why the Axe gets inaccurate up there... Surely that'd introduce similar inaccuracy to pitch-shifting in that area, as well as pitch-based chorus (detune) etc...
 
Barmaleus said:
Tuning with the neck pickup is always advised - the result is much more stable.
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Was this advised somewhere here on the forums? It's not in the manual and I've never heard that advice about other tuners.

Wolfenstein98k said:
I wonder why the Axe gets inaccurate up there... Surely that'd introduce similar inaccuracy to pitch-shifting in that area, as well as pitch-based chorus (detune) etc...
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Same here. It certainly has the CPU to compete with a PolyTune, yet...
 
benvigil said:
Was this advised somewhere here on the forums? It's not in the manual and I've never heard that advice about other tuners.
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Isn't this somewhat self-explanatory ? The bridge PU will always produce a lot more harmonics disturbing the measurement than the neck PU. The best is to use the neck PU and turn down the tone pot to eliminate as many harmonics as possible.
 
ChristThePhone said:
Isn't this somewhat self-explanatory ? The bridge PU will always produce a lot more harmonics disturbing the measurement than the neck PU. The best is to use the neck PU and turn down the tone pot to eliminate as many harmonics as possible.
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No, I don't think it's self-explanatory at all. Nor does your self-evident explanation make sense if it was. And I assume your talking about overtones.

First, the placement of the neck pickup will vary by guitar and therefore it's tendency to record certain harmonics (and overtones) will vary too because of the where the null nodes place themselves along the string length. The bridge will certainly produce more treble but the harmonics (and overtones) will just be different. If "harmonic content" is giving the AX8 such a hard time, wouldn't it make sense for the tuner to roll off all the highs internally before the signal hits the tuner algo. That makes a lot more sense (fix the tuner) than "conventional wisdom" floating around on a forum to roll your tone knob to be able to accurately tune your guitar. That's not a great solution for live players, nor is it a requirement for much less capable $9 tuners.

Second, I'd make the argument that higher frequencies will pose an easier time for the tuner simply because during any given any sample length, the higher the frequency, the more content the tuner has to work with. Hence, why bass guitars are harder for tuners, and why a device like the polytune does not work in polyphonic mode in bass mode. The high-E, 12th fret harmonic produces 8x the cycles for the tuner to work with than the low-E.

Last, if the harmonic overtones were disturbing the operation of the tuner, they would still do so "in tune" and the problem would manifest itself as the tuner displaying the wrong note or having difficulty "finding" the correct note. For example, if you're tuning the high-E, the tuner is seeing the natural E plus various overtones (fundamental + octave(s), fifths, thirds, etc.)... but every single overtone is in perfect relative tune with the fundamental. They would not be 10+ cents sharp, as the AX8 is showing.
 
benvigil said:
No, I don't think it's self-explanatory at all. Nor does your self-evident explanation make sense if it was. And I assume your talking about overtones.

First, the placement of the neck pickup will vary by guitar and therefore it's tendency to record certain harmonics (and overtones) will vary too because of the where the null nodes place themselves along the string length. The bridge will certainly produce more treble but the harmonics (and overtones) will just be different. If "harmonic content" is giving the AX8 such a hard time, wouldn't it make sense for the tuner to roll off all the highs internally before the signal hits the tuner algo. That makes a lot more sense (fix the tuner) than "conventional wisdom" floating around on a forum to roll your tone knob to be able to accurately tune your guitar. That's not a great solution for live players, nor is it a requirement for much less capable $9 tuners.

Second, I'd make the argument that higher frequencies will pose an easier time for the tuner simply because during any given any sample length, the higher the frequency, the more content the tuner has to work with. Hence, why bass guitars are harder for tuners, and why a device like the polytune does not work in polyphonic mode in bass mode. The high-E, 12th fret harmonic produces 8x the cycles for the tuner to work with than the low-E.

Last, if the harmonic overtones were disturbing the operation of the tuner, they would still do so "in tune" and the problem would manifest itself as the tuner displaying the wrong note or having difficulty "finding" the correct note. For example, if you're tuning the high-E, the tuner is seeing the natural E plus various overtones (fundamental + octave(s), fifths, thirds, etc.)... but every single overtone is in perfect relative tune with the fundamental. They would not be 10+ cents sharp, as the AX8 is showing.
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I have no idea what's causing the issue you're seeing. But regardless of the pickup placement, the neck pickup will provide a stronger fundamental than the bridge. Using the neck pickup with the tone rolled down works better for me on all tuners, not just the AX8.
 
I wasn't aware of the neck pickup/rolled tone trick and wouldn't have thought it out myself either but I saw it in another thread, gave it a try, and it worked very well. Previously, the tuning was always sharp and took a fews seconds to glide down to a stable tuner reading. Kinda like I plucked the string to hard but I didn't. Now with neck pickup and low tone the tuner reading is rock solid and instant.

Anyway, hope OP solves his high Eb problem soon.
 
Barmaleus said:
@benvigilJust years of reading forums and personal experience. Neck pickups have less overtones and stronger base frequency. Most of the time I tune with the neck pickup.
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I've been playing for 30+ years and never had this problem with a tuner. To reiterate, it's not that it doesn't work, it's that it's wrong... but only the high-E 12th fret harmonic. Like I said, other than that odd quirk, I like the tuner and it DOES work very well once the note settles down.

Molekiller said:
Previously, the tuning was always sharp and took a fews seconds to glide down to a stable tuner reading. Kinda like I plucked the string to hard but I didn't.
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Yes, I see this behavior too.

Molekiller said:
Anyway, hope OP solves his high Eb problem soon.
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Is nobody else seeing this behavior?
 
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