Atomic CLR - expectation/experience

[cobbler]

"Craig"

This is a thread that many folks posted and ask question. I responded to a comment made by someone else in the thread.

Comparing the a Powered Monitor to a real cab pushed by an amp is completely irrelevant ... that is exactly my point as well.

Why folks like Scott and others insist that a powered monitor (in this case the CLR) is going to give a user the same experience as powered amp/cab solution (even going as far as providing quotes :lol) is absurd.

And you "Craig" should be calling him out (and others regardless of manufacturer ) on this and not me for pointing out the misleading statements.


If I say someone making what I interpret as a misleading statements I will call them out on it.

I guess you and I interpreted his posts completely differently then because what I read from Scott was a detailed explanation on how to compare apples to apples with regards to FRFR monitors vs. Cabs and if you compare them that way you will be very surprised how similar they are. I didn't see anything misleading there at all.

 

[LVC]

Cool ..

I am slightly dyslexic which could explain why we read and interpret things differently.

I guess you and I interpreted his posts completely differently then because what I read from Scott was a detailed explanation on how to compare apples to apples with regards to FRFR monitors vs. Cabs and if you compare them that way you will be very surprised how similar they are. I didn't see anything misleading there at all.

 

[sprint]

I read these FRFR threads and the controlled feedback threads with interest as I have both FRFR and traditional AMP/CAB solutions and tinker with both though I do not play out and still use Atomics (on the fence about moving to CLRs). What I get out of it after reading these for a number of years now is:

- Isolated mic'd cab x + amp y using mic z should sound similar to modelled cab x, amp y, mic z through a flat monitor/frfr setup. It should approach very close if the modelling is very good (a la well tweaked Axe II with the new gen IRs) and the monitoring is very good (a la CLR or good studio monitor).

- Modelled cab x, amp y, mic z will sound different than cab x, amp y in the room BUT some FRFR solutions may approach nailing the "in the room" tone for some players playing some tones with some guitars some of the time.


Controlled feedback is obtained by playing loud enough such that the speakers subtly influence the guitar strings therefore:

- It's difficult to get controlled feedback playing an isolated Mic'd cab x + amp y using mic z.

- Though it may be possible to get controlled feedback from cranked up monitoring/frfr solutions (either monitoring an isolated mic'd cab x + amp y using mic z, or, monitoring a modelled cab x, amp y, mic z), the tone/feel of it, as well as the "trick" of getting it, may vary given the differences between an FRFR speaker + SS Amp, and traditional AMP/Cab and their effect on guitar strings when played loud.

- Most audience members (other than those close to the stage) at shows where a mic'd cab to PA is employed, are essentially listening to an isolated mic'd cab x + amp y using mic z except that the guitarist is in that isolated room with the amp/cab/mic (hence controlled feedback able to be heard thru PA)

 

[Patzag]

I read these FRFR threads and the controlled feedback threads with interest as I have both FRFR and traditional AMP/CAB solutions and tinker with both though I do not play out and still use Atomics (on the fence about moving to CLRs). What I get out of it after reading these for a number of years now is:

- Isolated mic'd cab x + amp y using mic z should sound similar to modelled cab x, amp y, mic z through a flat monitor/frfr setup. It should approach very close if the modelling is very good (a la well tweaked Axe II with the new gen IRs) and the monitoring is very good (a la CLR or good studio monitor).

- Modelled cab x, amp y, mic z will sound different than cab x, amp y in the room BUT some FRFR solutions may approach nailing the "in the room" tone for some players playing some tones with some guitars some of the time.


Controlled feedback is obtained by playing loud enough such that the speakers subtly influence the guitar strings therefore:

- It's difficult to get controlled feedback playing an isolated Mic'd cab x + amp y using mic z.

- Though it may be possible to get controlled feedback from cranked up monitoring/frfr solutions (either monitoring an isolated mic'd cab x + amp y using mic z, or, monitoring a modelled cab x, amp y, mic z), the tone/feel of it, as well as the "trick" of getting it, may vary given the differences between an FRFR speaker + SS Amp, and traditional AMP/Cab and their effect on guitar strings when played loud.

- Most audience members (other than those close to the stage) at shows where a mic'd cab to PA is employed, are essentially listening to an isolated mic'd cab x + amp y using mic z except that the guitarist is in that isolated room with the amp/cab/mic (hence controlled feedback able to be heard thru PA)

I play through various FRFR monitoring solutions. I never have problem getting the kind of feedback you're talking about. Just turn it up loud enough to influence the guitar and it will feedback.
I am not saying that a monitor will sound exactly like a cab, but it's close enough that it really does not matter much - to me.

Now, I mainly, not exclusively, but mainly use the Far Field JM 2x12 IR that came stock with the Axe. This sounds almost like a cab in the room, but still allowing for a certain polish that the cab doesn't have. I personally love this IR. It sounds very natural.

I have not experienced the CLR yet. But I have experienced very high end monitoring solutions from D&B, Meyersound and L'Acoustics (with the latter being the best). I hope to be able to compare it with a CLR someday and give a review.

 

[jamn4jc]

To the OP, I am on the list for a couple of CLR's and might come up in this latest run. I plan to try them as all around speakers for use in my man cave not only as near fields (overkill indeed), guitar backline, but also as part of my surround sound system for my mini movie theatre. I will definitely be writing an honest review of how they perform. Good or bad.

Hey Cobbler,

Would definitely be interested in seeing your comments. For me, it's a done deal. I love my CLR. Like I said later on, it was not an instant love affair, but the Axe and CLR were new to me. It has taken time to learn how to dial in everything. I thank the incredible wealth of information and support of others for helping with that endeavor. Plus, there have been incredible upgrades in the firmware this past year. I currently have an Active Cab and expect to receive an invite any day for the active wedge that I have been waiting on since mid-April. I love having that many options in the black box and a speaker like the CLR that can help tap in to the goodness. I have people telling me that my tone has improved many fold. I am really looking forward to taking my understanding and skill to the next level.

Rick.

 

[scruffydoo]

My out of box experience has been a little disappointing tbh, I guess I just got swept up in the hype and expected an instant tone from the gods. I usually use an alto TS115A and have been very happy with it, the CLR is definitely flatter and clearer but sounds quite brittle to me and not as much low end as the alto, the noise floor is also lot higher.

No doubt I could tweak my patches to suit but I like my tone as is, for the average hobby player joe like me, justifying the 900 bucks difference is tough as I found the difference to be negligible , so I'd be careful not to get to swept up in the emporers new clothes syndrome.

 

[echo44]

My out of box experience has been a little disappointing tbh, I guess I just got swept up in the hype and expected an instant tone from the gods. I usually use an alto TS115A and have been very happy with it, the CLR is definitely flatter and clearer but sounds quite brittle to me and not as much low end as the alto, the noise floor is also lot higher.

No doubt I could tweak my patches to suit but I like my tone as is, for the average hobby player joe like me, justifying the 900 bucks difference is tough as I found the difference to be negligible , so I'd be careful not to get to swept up in the emporers new clothes syndrome.

I get where you are coming from just got my CLR today no Doubt it is a great FRFR speaker, I also so far find it a little brittle, will have to try to dial it in. I also get swept away in the trends so far have tried JBL, K10, K12, RCF SMA12 and now the CLR. Each time I was hoping for that magical moment and each time have been let down. The good news is I soon will be able to open up my own monitor store I plan to give the CLR a few more weeks than may go the fryette or matrix route.

 

[notalemming]

The is no magic tone from the gods from this or any other FRFR. All the CLR will do is give you a very accurate representation of how your patch really sounds. If it was dialed in on another speaker that is lacking, it will not sound right on the CLR nor will a patch dialed in on the CLR sound right on a JBL, K10, K12 or RCF SMA12. I have 2 CLR's & my experience is the IR's are the serious weak link in the whole chain. They have gotten better but still have a long way to go IMHO. Hopefully Cliff's latest epiphany will get us closer to the magic tone from the gods.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Play well recorded music through the CLR. Not brittle. Redial the presets you have.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

 

[HwyStar]

^^^ In regards to Scott's post above, I am curious, what are you guys using as your reference recordings?

Makes sense to play along with songs to dial in your guitar tone using the same CLR speakers. If there was a de facto tone to use to dial in your CLR's - what would be your first choice and second choice (clean & distorted)?

 

[Scott Peterson]

My out of box experience has been a little disappointing tbh, I guess I just got swept up in the hype and expected an instant tone from the gods. I usually use an alto TS115A and have been very happy with it, the CLR is definitely flatter and clearer but sounds quite brittle to me and not as much low end as the alto, the noise floor is also lot higher.

No doubt I could tweak my patches to suit but I like my tone as is, for the average hobby player joe like me, justifying the 900 bucks difference is tough as I found the difference to be negligible , so I'd be careful not to get to swept up in the emporers new clothes syndrome.

The noise floor is higher on the CLR? I'd seriously look at your gain staging, something is not right there. I've used a few different Alto products; there is a very wide gap between that gear and the CLR - even limited to the noise floor. Read my response below and test it that way. FWIW - I use the XLR out to the CLR in; I set my input to 75% and my output to 50% on the CLR.

^^^ In regards to Scott's post above, I am curious, what are you guys using as your reference recordings?

Makes sense to play along with songs to dial in your guitar tone using the same CLR speakers. If there was a de facto tone to use to dial in your CLR's - what would be your first choice and second choice (clean & distorted)?

Use actual full range music (I like Sting's stuff and anything Bob Clearmountain has worked on for instance) to sort out what the speaker does, what it can do and what it's limitations are. Use a well known, well regarded recording as reference. Do it with all full range speakers to give you a reference point. NOT your Axe-FX.

Then once you have your bearings; check it with your Axe-FX.

One thing that you need to understand is that the CLR is extremely honest and uncolored. It isn't "brittle" at all; anyone that has ever used highly accurate high end studio monitors will recognize that the top end of a good speaker is not strident or 'brittle' at all; if you are hearing that just based on your preset from the Axe-FXII then you most likely have a preset dialed that way.

The CLR - and I've tested mine now exhaustively and extensively - is crazy accurate to source.

Use real music to test it; use test tones to test it. Don't just plug in your Axe-FX that is dialed to compensate for other speakers without tweaking your presets to the CLR.

 

[jimfist]

My out of box experience has been a little disappointing tbh, I guess I just got swept up in the hype and expected an instant tone from the gods. I usually use an alto TS115A and have been very happy with it, the CLR is definitely flatter and clearer but sounds quite brittle to me and not as much low end as the alto, the noise floor is also lot higher.

No doubt I could tweak my patches to suit but I like my tone as is, for the average hobby player joe like me, justifying the 900 bucks difference is tough as I found the difference to be negligible , so I'd be careful not to get to swept up in the emporers new clothes syndrome.

From a purely subjective, emotional and highly individual standpoint, everyone is entitled to their preference and opinion on what they "like" in tone, gear, etc. However, I would take exception to your "emperor's new clothes" analogy, as this implies that the CLR is a smoke and mirrors facade, with no technical or purely objective measurable, desirable qualities that justify its price tag. I would strongly disagree.

Speaking from personal experience, I've used the same Alto TS115A at a local house PA gig, and though a nice value for the money, I'd sooner lop off my left testicle with a dull butter knife than use those Alto speakers as a reference for anything very critical....but that's just me...I'm weird like that. Don't get me wrong...three Altos for the price of one CLR is tempting perhaps, but you've got to be sh!tting me if you thing the Altos are in the same league as the CLR...on many levels...JMHO.

 

[mrstrat]

I get where you are coming from just got my CLR today no Doubt it is a great FRFR speaker, I also so far find it a little brittle, will have to try to dial it in. I also get swept away in the trends so far have tried JBL, K10, K12, RCF SMA12 and now the CLR. Each time I was hoping for that magical moment and each time have been let down. The good news is I soon will be able to open up my own monitor store I plan to give the CLR a few more weeks than may go the fryette or matrix route.

So I just got my CLRs last Friday, and was having a similar experience until I put them on the floor as a wedge and changed the setting to "Tilt". I'm not sure why, but it made a big difference for me. Also, I've had better luck dialing in a really great clean tone with a little reverb and delay...just beautiful. So I would start there. Tonight I also played around with my USA Pre Yellow preset and got it sounding really good. The key for me on the lead tones is using the High Frequency cut in the cab block to cut out some of the "Sizzle", or brittle-ness you may be hearing. I'm finding that setting it between 4500-5000Hz is the sweet spot for my ears. Scott's suggestion to run some good quality pre-recorded music through them is good advice. I did, and they sound amazing...

 

[scruffydoo]

From a purely subjective, emotional and highly individual standpoint, everyone is entitled to their preference and opinion on what they "like" in tone, gear, etc. However, I would take exception to your "emperor's new clothes" analogy, as this implies that the CLR is a smoke and mirrors facade, with no technical or purely objective measurable, desirable qualities that justify its price tag. I would strongly disagree.

The analogy was meant more as a statement for guitar players always wanting the latest and greatest.. that's all

Speaking from personal experience, I've used the same Alto TS115A at a local house PA gig, and though a nice value for the money, I'd sooner lop off my left testicle with a dull butter knife than use those Alto speakers as a reference for anything very critical....but that's just me...I'm weird like that. Don't get me wrong...three Altos for the price of one CLR is tempting perhaps, but you've got to be sh!tting me if you thing the Altos are in the same league as the CLR...on many levels...JMHO.

I think the CLR's are probably excellent for pro, stage or loud players, certainly they sounded clearer at volume than the Alto's but at low volume in my home studio with my rig there was no huge improvement and I preferred the Alto's. I wasn't A/B ing them so you don't need to get defensive, just answering the OP's question honestly from the viewpoint of a hobby (but very experienced) player.. like 90% of the people here.

 

[scruffydoo]

The noise floor is higher on the CLR?

Yes, by quite some margin

I've used a few different Alto products; there is a very wide gap between that gear and the CLR

Agreed I've tried a couple of products, wedges etc. and hated them, but once you get them positioned OK the 115's are pretty good.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Yes, by quite some margin



Agreed I've tried a couple of products, wedges etc. and hated them, but once you get them positioned OK the 115's are pretty good.

You have something amiss then. I'd guess that it has to do with gain staging. What are the knob positions you are using with the CLR?

 

[scorch]

OK, time for me to chime in. I've had 2 passive CLR's for about 3 weeks now. I have several different amp choices so I didn't want another powered cab.

The passive CLR sounds good. I've run 2 K12's for almost 4 years so that's where I'm coming from. IMO, the CLR does have a bit of a crispy high end. Not difficult to deal with, but there. The bass is different...more of a 'thunk' compared to the K12's 'thump'. The CLR box is very stout and rigid so that's probably where the difference is.

I modified my K12's a couple of years ago with some acoustic foam in the tweeter section. Two layers of 3/4" sound Passing NOT sound-absorbing foam smoothed out the treble very nicely. My K12's are noticeably smoother than the CLR 's.

I've pushed the CLR's with a Carvin 1504 SS amp and a Fryette 2/50/2. Both sound great. At first, I thought the Fryette had 'more' tone but then I snapped to trying the Fryette with the presence and resonance turned to zero and it sounded nearly exactly like the Carvin 1504. Those knobs just add some EQ into the equation.

So, I'm using both the K12's and CLR's in my sound cave. Sounds great. Moves LOTS of air. Make a great stereo setup. But I honestly can't say the passive CLR's are a lot better than the K12's. Never heard the active versions so I have no comment.

Just some info for people looking for impressions.

 

[BMH]

Guys who like the sound of their amp or cabinets better ... don't you mic your amp?!?! All the pro acts do. Then your sound is through FRFR anyway. Soooooo (?!?!)

I never did follow this logic. I have guys that mic their amps come up and say they love my sound, but they don't trust FRFR. Yet they go through the PA. Ok then.

It must be me.

 

[jimfist]

The analogy was meant more as a statement for guitar players always wanting the latest and greatest.. that's all

OK, I get what you mean...we're talking Gear Aquisition Syndrome, aka G.A.S.

I think the CLR's are probably excellent for pro, stage or loud players, certainly they sounded clearer at volume than the Alto's but at low volume in my home studio with my rig there was no huge improvement and I preferred the Alto's. I wasn't A/B ing them so you don't need to get defensive, just answering the OP's question honestly from the viewpoint of a hobby (but very experienced) player.. like 90% of the people here.

Though you may not have intended to A/B the CLR vs the Alto, it did seem to come across that way. No biggie. I don't necessarily disagree with your overall sentiment, that the $700 +/- discrepancy between the Alto and the CLR is a consideration, and for low level home playing (not gigging) you may not necessarily benefit from the CLR's strengths. I have had a different experience regarding the CLR being brittle. IMO, far from it. As for the noise floor, no complaints on that either. Very, very quiet. Only noise I'v heard was simply amplifying the processor feeding the CLR, but not the CLR itself. JMHO =)

 

[FPFL]

Regardless of the actual quality of a product there is a predictable hype curve / hype cycle around popular ones.
To me the CLR is just going through a fairly normal progression these things go thru. Its predictable enough to have a name and a plot (see link below)
It doesn't have to map to reality, that's not the point... Expectations often don't.

Hype cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia